P4 & Rambus

[loukings]

If price not the problem will the P4 rambus 800 mhz set up be the true performance leader over DDR 200 or 266 which is not even out yet (I dont care if its AMD or P4). I will be building a P4 set up Q1 and want to know if Rambus is that bad a choice, in my opinion I think DDR will be a bottle neck when matched with the P4 due to system bus mis-match. Share you opinions.

[Humus]

It'll probably be slower, but even if it would be faster I'd recommend buying DDR-RAM instead (if there are motherboard available for it) since it's cheaper and because Rambus is plainly a bad company which you shouldn't support by buying their products.
The mismatch with the system bus (in case of DDR 266) it'll probably be slightly slower than it would be if it was running syncroniously (like PC-133 on a Athlon doesn't boost too much over PC-100), but still faster than DDR 200 (which will be syncroniuos with the system bus).

BTW, DDR is actually already available and has been for a couple of months.

[loukings]

I know DDR has been available on video cards but not motu's. Why does rambus have such a bad rap because of the i820 chipset that could not optimise with a 133mhz fsb, and were do you think DDR came from, the same makers as rambus. If P4 and rambus shake out to do what was intended DDR will not be able to keep up. The latest price on Kingston rambus 800mhz is $635 ouch that does suck you figure DDR 266 will be about $350-$400 for quality stuff. I am staying optimistic for price drops on rambus w/ the intoduction of P4 .

[sww]

RAMBUS has a bad rep because the stole technology and filed a patent on it and are now suing people based on the stolen intellectual property. DDR SDRAM will be marginally more expensive than SDRAM. PC800 RDRAM is NOT 800 MHz.

[loukings]

stole the technology is this a fact and were did you get your info? as far as 800mhz I realise that number does not in anyway reflect system bus speed. I believe it has do with internal clock speeds I may be wrong I will check on line for the specifics.

[sww]

Well, actually stole is a matter of contention between the memory manufacturers and RAMBUS. I actually don't have access to all the information so I shouldn't make judgments like that, but the info I do have seems to indicate that they took information from an open standards meeting and patented portions of it.

[loukings]

Well to rambus's credit they turned idea into reality. Although I think they came out to soon for they're own good. Rambus just does not benefit from 133 fsb. They ended up looking like asses with over priced under performing memory. They should have just waited and developed more and released along side P4. A waiting game to see DDR & Rambus shoot out w/ P4

[smtkr]

Rambus will rule with 400Mhz FSB on the PIV. The price will drop as it will become a standard.

[Arcadian]

Originally posted by smtkr:
Rambus will rule with 400Mhz FSB on the PIV. The price will drop as it will become a standard.

Unfortunately, Rambus is an example of "The Chicken and the Egg" syndrome. What comes first? Increased demand, or lower prices? If people don't immediately flock to Pentium 4, and chances are the Pentium 4 is aimed at a high end segment, which is low volume, then producers of Rambus memory won't have reason to increase supply. Without an increase in supply, Rambus is likely to stay high priced. It's what people call a "Catch-22". Unfortunately, Rambus is the best standard for the high bandwidth Pentium 4, but it may not last, since people consider DDR to be the better value, and when the masses believe eventually becomes reality.

[Thrawn_CW]

but if u think about it, over time the p4 will filter down into the medium computer market, as intel faze out the p3, so demand will increase bringing down the price of RDRAM, the problem is they have to survive the DDR onslught first.

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Life is like a box of chocolates....you always get left with the crap.

[Arcadian]

Originally posted by Thrawn_CW:
but if u think about it, over time the p4 will filter down into the medium computer market, as intel faze out the p3, so demand will increase bringing down the price of RDRAM, the problem is they have to survive the DDR onslught first.


You've got it backward. Demand INCREASES prices. If Pentium 4 and Rambus were to be brought down into the mainstream, it would be supply than decreases prices.

[Moridin]

Originally posted by Arcadian:
You've got it backward. Demand INCREASES prices. If Pentium 4 and Rambus were to be brought down into the mainstream, it would be supply than decreases prices.


Economies of scale are what is needed to bring down price. Increased in supply and demand mean more parts are produced which in turn lowers the production cost per part.

[Moridin]

Originally posted by sww:
Well, actually stole is a matter of contention between the memory manufacturers and RAMBUS. I actually don't have access to all the information so I shouldn't make judgments like that, but the info I do have seems to indicate that they took information from an open standards meeting and patented portions of it.

The sequence runs something like this. Rambus developed some technology in 1990 and applied for patents. In 1995 JEDEC met and developed the SDRAM standard. Part of the standard mirrored the tech that Rambus was patenting. JEDEC rules say that members must reveal patent applications relating to technologies it is developing. Rambus was part of JEDEC at the time, but did not vote on the standard.

Discussions on DDR SDRAM standard began in 1997. Rambus was no longer a part of JEDEC.

Infinion is now claiming that they have patents that predate the Rambus work. We do not know if this applies to all three patents Rambus claims SDRAM violates.

I see no guaranty that Rambus will loose the court case, in fact until the prior art claims by Infineon I thought Rambus would almost certainly win. At least on DDR and maybe SDRAM as well.

[Moridin]

Originally posted by loukings:
I know DDR has been available on video cards but not motu's. Why does rambus have such a bad rap because of the i820 chipset that could not optimise with a 133mhz fsb, and were do you think DDR came from, the same makers as rambus. If P4 and rambus shake out to do what was intended DDR will not be able to keep up. The latest price on Kingston rambus 800mhz is $635 ouch that does suck you figure DDR 266 will be about $350-$400 for quality stuff. I am staying optimistic for price drops on rambus w/ the intoduction of P4 .

You can get Samsung PC800 at $208.00 for 1 128-MB stick and 129 for a 64-MB stick. You can find cheaper than this. P4's will apparently ship with a 64-MB stick of RDRAM. So if you want a system with 128 MB it will cost you $100-$140 for (Rambus) memory.

Prices may rise again if demand goes back up.

I think that RDRAM will be faster then DDR SDRAM on the P4 due to the FSB being more suited to RDRAM. This is just speculation though.

[ginsu2k]

> I know DDR has been available on video cards but not motu's.

you answer your own question...really, if RAMBUS was superior, wouldn't we have seen it on Video Cards by now? i mean, that's the most bandwith intensive scenario i can think of for RAM...
...honestly, if they had superior tech. why would they sue other manufacturers for producing DDR...they know it's not working out so they're scratching the walls for something before they go down...seriously

[Thrawn_CW]

i don't think that people have put rambus on graphics cards yet becuase it's just not viable. Look at the price of the geforce2 ultra, and then imagine what would happen to the price if they put RDRAM instead of DDR.
What i meant earlier about demand lowering prices is that it is cheaper to produce and buy things in volume, so if demand does increase then they will probably lower the prices as they will be producing a lot more, but saying that if they can't keep up with the demand then prices will rise.

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Life is like a box of chocolates....you always get left with the crap.

[Arcadian]

Originally posted by Thrawn_CW:
i don't think that people have put rambus on graphics cards yet becuase it's just not viable. Look at the price of the geforce2 ultra, and then imagine what would happen to the price if they put RDRAM instead of DDR.
What i meant earlier about demand lowering prices is that it is cheaper to produce and buy things in volume, so if demand does increase then they will probably lower the prices as they will be producing a lot more, but saying that if they can't keep up with the demand then prices will rise.


One of the biggest costs for Rambus memory is the RIMMs. Electrically, RIMMs need to go through an exhaustive validation process. Putting Rambus on a video card will actually be much cheaper than DDR, and higher performance. Video card makers don't use it because DDR has already shown itself to be a viable method.

[Trash]

Via will most likely have a pentium 4 ddr chipset out. Intel is dragging their feet on ddr because of RamAss agreements. Intel is in a position where because of the agreements with RamAss they will probably license Via the p4 bus to make p4 ddr chipsets to avoid losing p4 sales because of rdram.

I think its pretty funny that Intel made Via grow so much in a year for Intel's failure to support pc133. Now Via may end up helping Intel with their p4 in the same way.

DDR should beat pc800 in both speed and cost. Pc800 isn't much faster than pc133 for far more money. Rdramm raises the price of a p4 system without increasing the performance enough to justify the cost increase.

The best thing for Intel to do would be buying out RamAss and getting out of all the agreements. Also killing all of the licensing agreements that memory makers have signed with RamAss. That would show some intelligent leadership by Intel. Anything that interferes with open memory standards is not going to help Intel in the long run. Cpus without ram just do not sell.

[ECILOPAVEHT]

Originally posted by Trash:
[B]DDR should beat pc800 in both speed and cost. Pc800 isn't much faster than pc133 for far more money. Rdramm raises the price of a p4 system without increasing the performance enough to justify the cost increase.

B]

RDRAM technology has received a bad name from the company who invented it! We have not even seen RDRAM's full potential. It should have never been released with the 133 MHz fsb. RDRAM will, I think excel when it is placed on the upcoming 400mhz fsb where it can take advantage of the bandwidth. As for price I just picked up another 128 Megs of PC 800 for $179.00 that is only about $50.00 more then a good stick of 133.



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Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face.
to frown. BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and smack
the fool upside the head

[Warin]

Well, I think this arguement may well be moot. Intel has now stated that they made a mistake in their faith in Rambus. There is a good article at http://news.ft.com/ft/gx.cgi/ftc?pagename=View&c=Article&cid=FT3B40B8GEC&live=true&useoverridetemplate=ZZZ3XDHE90C&tagid=ZZZJIU2RA0C

on how Intel rue's their partnership with Rambus. I think it's a good indication that rambus may soon join micro channel architecture on those 'Computer Museum' websites.

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No Matter Where You Go, There You Are.

[ECILOPAVEHT]

Like I said it not the technology its the company and there whiney *** attitude.

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Remember, when someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face.
to frown. BUT, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and smack
the fool upside the head

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by ginsu2k:
> I know DDR has been available on video cards but not motu's.

you answer your own question...really, if RAMBUS was superior, wouldn't we have seen it on Video Cards by now? i mean, that's the most bandwith intensive scenario i can think of for RAM...
...honestly, if they had superior tech. why would they sue other manufacturers for producing DDR...they know it's not working out so they're scratching the walls for something before they go down...seriously
Right on! But RAMBUS is also suing rival CPU manufactors that will support DDR, like AMD and Transmeta. I say RAMBUS blows, after Craig Barret denounced them a week ago, their days are numbered. Intel's priority will be to get a SDRAM chipset for the p4 out ASAP.



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When Can I overclock a terahertz cpu?

[jtshaw]

Rambus is suing DDR manufacturers because they want money. Rambus could give a crap what is faster or better memory. They just want to get some of the proceeds. They aren't even a manufacturer, they own the "intellecule property". RDRAM isn't a bad technology, niether is DDR. RDRAM is so expensive because nobody wants to agree to pay rambus for it so nobody is producing it. This creates a basic supply and demand situation. If we could remove rambus from the face of the earth I bet we would see rdram all over the integrated market.

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My computer said "WindowsME/2000 or better" so I installed Linux.