Graphing Calculators [Archive]

al bundy

07-25-2001, 06:44 AM

Just an FYI.

The TI-92 Plus and the TI-89 are identical in their functionality. The only way in which they differ at all is physically - in that the TI-92 'Plus' (which is the current "version" of the older TI-92) simply has a separate dedicated key for each letter of the alphabet, a slightly bigger screen, and costs a bit more for those reasons (it's worth it though).

Both of these TI machines easily allow for alphabetic and numeric input - it's just that the TI-89 requires you to press an "alpha" key first, before a key will display its assigned letter of the alphabet. The additional time it takes to do this is step is negligible - unless you're typing in a small book! So it's really very silly if any institution disallows the TI-92 Plus, but allows the TI-89... LOL! http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Either way, if you prefer the smaller form-factor, go with the TI-89 and save the extra bit-o-green. You don't give up any features at all (not even one) when you choose the TI-89 over the TI-92 Plus.

Add the menu-driven interface of the TI-89 and TI-92 Plus, and you have the simplest, most powerful, and most straightforward calculators ever developed for students so far... even (and maybe especially) when compared with HP machines (of which I've also owned many http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/smile.gif ). You can also upgrade the functions of these TI machines via the internet, using TI's free GraphLink software and a GraphLink cable. Plenty of free software is available for free download from the TI website for these machines.

College teachers disallowing these newer TI machines are very rapidly dying out, as the new textbooks now refer to these machines liberally and the institutions themselves are including teacher-training on these TI's as part of the required professional development programs. These TI machines are the most widely adopted calculator models by college institutions out of all the existing calculators on the market, and by next year should be the standard model for virtually all colleges and universities around the country (already they are at most universities).

Edit: No, TI-89 and TI-92 Plus machines are not only good for math majors! They are extremely useful to students in every level of math instruction, from remedial to the most advanced. Almost all students - regardless of the academic program/path they are on - will need to take some math courses, and will likely be doing some math in their non-mathematics courses as well (that's why they are required to take the math courses in the first place). http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/wink.gif

I sound like a college mathematics instructor, don't I? Hmmm...

[This message has been edited by al bundy (edited July 25, 2001).]

Milz

07-25-2001, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by Mofo:
I'm hearing from a few other people that TI-89 "might" not be allowed for some college Math classes...anyone else run into trouble w/ TI89 conflicting w/ class regulations?

I've never heard of a TI-89 not being allowed where other calculators are. The only grounds I know of for restricting a calculator are a QWERTY keyboard or an IR port, and the ones with an IR are usually allowed if the port is covered with tape. AlBundy is probably right that the 92 is gaining more acceptance, but I would buy an 89 anyway, just to be safe. One huge advantage of an 89 over the 86 or 83 is that it can use mathematical symbols for just about everything, this is particularily useful for calc 1 and 2. It's nice to be able to enter everything the way you see it in the book rather than translating it to TI commands first.

After you learn to do it the long way of course http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Milz (edited August 12, 2001).]

boob

07-25-2001, 03:56 PM

Our school doesn't ban or forbid TI-89 calculators, it just doesn't use those specific ones for classes, which could become a hassle since you would have to do alot of calculations in a different manner. The only time that our teacher would not allow TI-89's or higher was because of specific problems that we were doing, in which the TI-89 and higher would do the whole problem for you very easily, the only reason.

Everyone is right though and I agree with them, things are advancing, and TI-89 would probably last you longer in the long run. I wouldn't doubt our college will switch to those within the 3 more years of college I have left there. It's just that right now, every math course offered in our college is easily handled with the TI-83+, which could save you money, but of course it depends on your college.

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blk-sabbath-fan

07-25-2001, 04:01 PM

try ebay.com thats where i got my ti-86 for a good deal and it was new in the package although get one soon because people will be bidding alot more in about a month when classes start up

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311_man

07-27-2001, 03:05 AM

I got an HP 48G in 1993, and I have been in love with it ever since. If I ever lost that calculator... I don't know what I'd do!!! http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/smile.gif

RPN is the way to go...

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mcucchiara

07-27-2001, 03:53 AM

Don't be immature

--Klashe

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[This message has been edited by Klashe (edited July 27, 2001).]

jester22c

07-27-2001, 02:54 PM

Get yourself an 89. I have one and it is the best calc I've ever used. It has worked nicely for me from Alg 1 all the way up to AP Calc. It is definately worth the extra money. It has some impressive games too (some of which I've programmed myself).

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Rokarj

07-27-2001, 03:05 PM

I have an 89 and love it, have gone through 2 years of college and haven't ran into the problem of not being able to use the calculator in classes yet. The only times i wasn't able to use it were in tests that no calculators whatsoever were allowed.

However some classes didn't allow the 92 because it had a keyboard, don't ask me why as I don't know.

jubjub

07-27-2001, 10:14 PM

I put in another vote for the HP 48G.

I consider TI's the Mac's of calculators
Easy to use for the average user.

HP's are the workstations of calcs.

You'll love the reverse polish system once you get used to it. AWESOME for finance classes. I was the only one with a HP in both of my finance classes. Not a single person ever beat me when taking test. Most test I finished in less than 30 mins.

Incase you haven't used a HP. To add 2+2, you would do this
2
Enter
2
+

It will ruin you from every using a regular calc, but once you have the 48G, you'll never need another calculaltor ever.

Besides you can brag to your friends that your calc has a built in equation to calculate the escape velocity from a gravatational field.

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nkeezer

07-28-2001, 06:20 AM

Assuming that professors at other schools are anything like those at UCLA, then make sure to consider that

1: If you aren't a math major, the amount and complexity of math you'll be doing will probably be pretty limited. After two years of college so far as a physiological sciences major, there has never been a time when my TI-86 hasn't been more than sufficient, and few times when I really needed anything more than a simple scientific calculator.

2: All my math and physics professors and two of my chem professors (6 out of 7) did not allow calculators of any sort on quizzes/test/finals. Your fancy calculator may make homework problems a cinch, but it won't teach you the concepts, and if you don't know those, then you're SOL if you ever need to work a problem without it. Professors know it, too.

Unless you really really think you need a great fancypants calculator, just get something like the 86 and save your money for something more enjoyable.

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al bundy

07-28-2001, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by nkeezer:
If you aren't a math major, the amount and complexity of math you'll be doing will probably be pretty limited...

Your fancy calculator may make homework problems a cinch, but it won't teach you the concepts, and if you don't know those, then you're SOL if you ever need to work a problem without it. Professors know it, too...

Unless you really really think you need a great fancypants calculator, just get something like the 86...

Irresponsible comments like that really annoy me. This guy nkeezer is missing the basic reason for even having a good tool like the TI-89 (or TI-92 Plus) calculator. The reason that math educators are recommending these machines in all levels of math education from grade-school through college, and the reason that so many learning institutions are increasingly adopting them, are extremely important and valid ones.

It's the quality of the learning experience that matters, and not simply the raw quantity or subjective complexity.

The whole point of having a menu-driven user interface and a CAS (computer-algebra system) onboard a calculator is that it frees up the student to focus more strongly on the concepts - and less so on some of the tedious computational aspects that can tend to distract a learner from those underlying concepts.

Nobody ever claims that a calculator can singlehandedly teach or force a student to learn... the point is that it can be an extremely effective learning tool to assist in the learning process.

Further, try to invent a realistic example in a real-life scenario when a reasonably detailed mathematical problem in any of the sciences won't be handled by the professional using some kind of software. Fact is, in all but the most simple cases you're SOL without computational assistance no matter how you slice it. [Except for possibly in physiological science? I don't know enough about that field to say for certain... but neither would a student only two core-level years into an academic program]

Used to be that some more conservative-minded educators argued against ever allowing even the basic scientific calculators in the classroom, because students would no longer need to look-up trigonometric, logarithmic, square-root, etc. values with the tables in the back of the old math books. They warned everybody that it would cause students to no longer learn the concepts of those mathematical functions if they didn't have to look all those values up in those long tables. Worst of all they said: What in the world would a student ever do, if they needed something like a natural logarithm value for instance, and their calculator wasn't available?

Edit: Nowadays however, I bet you would be very hard-pressed to even find a logarithm table anymore!

It should be quite clear that nkeezer does not speak for any professors whatsoever (believe me), and should not try to take the tone of an educator in this thread.

[This message has been edited by al bundy (edited July 28, 2001).]

nkeezer

07-28-2001, 01:24 PM

Al:

I never claimed to be an educator, nor did I take the tone of one. I'm offering my advice, based on my experiences, which, BTW, seem to be pretty similar to those of Mofo.

Since I'm pressed for time, I'll keep it short. Remember those commercials from a few months back for some tech firm about not always needing to use the power you have (things like using a SWAT team to get into your house if you forgot your keys)? That's the point I was making to Mofo. As a biology major, he probably won't be doing much math to begin with, and that math isn't likely to require much more than a scientific calculator, and a great deal of the time he may not even be allowed to use a calculator. So now why should he spend $150 on a calculator, when one that costs $75 will do? Because he can? Or just in case?

Incidentally, your point about advanced calculators freeing people up to learn is flawed at best: see the reactions on peoples' faces when they're told they aren't allowed to use one on their midterms -- they're shocked and scared not because they'll have to multiply 55 x 13 on paper, but because they have no clue what they're supposed to do to solve a problem. Yes, I do realize that in almost any real-life situation, you will be allowed to use a calculator, computer, notes, etc. etc. But this is not real life, this is school.

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richardginn

07-28-2001, 09:27 PM

well I would check to make sure what the college rules are for the caculators you are going to buy.

You would not want to buy a caculator and then find out you can't use if the test.

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al bundy

07-28-2001, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by nkeezer:
...your point about advanced calculators freeing people up to learn is flawed at best: see the reactions on peoples' faces when they're told they aren't allowed to use one on their midterms -- they're shocked and scared not because they'll have to multiply 55 x 13 on paper, but because they have no clue what they're supposed to do to solve a problem.

Another absolutely false statement. We have literally volumes of current research data in the mathematical education field showing that current CAS calculator technology accomplishes precisely what you are saying it doesn't do: It frees up the learner, whether in grade/junior high/high school/college, to focus more on the concepts involved - and less on some of the otherwise distracting and tedious computational details. Since you say you attend university, enter your university library and pick up a current issue of virtually any reputable mathematics education journal and you will see this for yourself.

If a student has no idea of how to solve a problem on an exam, it isn't because of any calculator they were using to study! It's because they didn't study well - or perhaps not at all. Although some students are good at making excuses, the truth is there's no excuse for a student being in that position - and blaming a calculator (of any type) for such an outcome is simply ridiculous. Your professors do know this.

Further, a professor would never disallow a calculator on a test unless the pure computation involved is extremely simple. In fact, the only reason this is ever done at all is so that an instructor may better measure the depth of a student's conceptual understanding of the specific topic, rather than their algebra skills - and this is exactly what these newer calculators aid and assist the student in developing. Again, if a student cannot perform any rather simple mathematical details involved, it's clearly not the fault of any calculator... it's the fault of their previous educators, and perhaps the motivation of the actual student in question.

Your analogy comparing these calculators to some kind of SWAT team used for simple door opening jobs is shockingly incorrect. The strength of these machines, by their very design, is to allow for a more intuitive interface that also stimulates and enhances the overall learning experience. Like I said above, it is all about the quality of the learning experience that matters here - and this remains true in all levels of instruction, and in any field where mathematics is a main tool of the practice. The designers of the current TI interface included teams of professional math educators from all levels of instruction, along with other professional mathematics education researchers and consumer feedback/needs analysts. These machines are designed to facilitate mathematical calculations in any relevant setting - whether it's within a math class proper, or in a classroom of one of the client disciplines (like Biological Science, etc.)

Edit: Hey Mofo, I sincerely hope that the calculator you choose to buy and use works out extremely well for you, whatever make/model it ends up being. The points I am making here have now evolved to much larger ones, and are intended to respond to some rather unbelievably false and misleading examples of misinformation being put forward above. Of course there are still some examples of older instructors in our system that have deliberately chosen not to keep up with the times - and those instructors may then insist on continuing to use the older approaches that have caused the average mathematical competence of our current batch of students to be undeniably sub-par in the global arena. You obviously won't be able to check with every single future teacher you might possibly ever have in college, to see if these calculators will be disallowed - but I doubt that this will really matter that much anyway. Very many of those "old-guard" instructors are dying out, and still others are finally waking up and overhauling their older, lazier teaching approaches. Unlike nkeezer, I can speak as an educator when I offer you my advice - both on a particular individual purchase, and on the larger perspective and philosophy of the professional Math-Ed community.

[This message has been edited by al bundy (edited July 29, 2001).]

salehrules

07-29-2001, 06:00 PM

i don't know what you two are arguing about, but it's off topic if you ask me. one's arguing for using a calculator and the other one against getting an expensive calculator. ??? i'm confused.
mofo, just get a ti something (83/86/89, whatever) and you should do fine. since you're a bio major, you could as well get the 83 and save a buck or two.
there is no need for you to get an hp... those are pretty expensive, even though they are kick ***.

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prowler

07-30-2001, 12:04 AM

Look man... this is a very personal thing... if you are good with electronic stuff get the HP 49G... its more complicated to use but it is better, indeed... however the TI-89 and the TI-92+ are not far behind and the TI's are much easier to use and have the Preaty Print thing that helps a lot... beleive me... it has a very user friendly OS if you like to call it that.. I have the TI-92+... it is great however I saw somewhere in this post that you could have problems when you are going to have an exam or something... yes, that can happen... and with the TI-89 the worries of that are gone... but still to move in th 92+ is much more easier... dont buy a calc for the games and that stuff... buy it for the things it is going to help you with... and with the TI you can download lots of apps that make every thing even easier... you just go to www.ticalc.org (http://www.ticalc.org) and in there you can download almost anything...
well hope this helps you out..

luck

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Klashe

07-30-2001, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by salehrules:

there is no need for you to get an hp... those are pretty expensive, even though they are kick ***.

I actually bought my HP 48GX for 75 bucks and that was 4 years ago. I think that price is comparable to the TI's.

kbcr3

07-30-2001, 02:21 PM

pick one up on www.ebay.com (http://www.ebay.com)
i got one of my ti-83plus for 60 bucks. used, but does that ever make a difference.

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hyperextreme

08-01-2001, 12:26 AM

As an engineer, I faced an enormous decision in getting ready to study for my PE - most engineers use HP calculators. I had a trusty TI-85, but wanted more firepower, plus would want another calc for the test (you're allowed to take in a spare in case one dies on you). So, HP or TI?

The 49G and 92 Plus both looked great. In the end, I went for the TI-89. The 92, with is QWERTY keyboard, would not have been allowed. I grant that the 49G is more powerful, but the 89 can do almost as much and much more easily. So it's really personal preference, because both are great products.

Incidentally, for anyone scared of Reverse Polish Notation (RPN), don't be afraid to give the 49G a try. It can be set to accept both standard and RPN entry.

And for TI fans looking for free software, tips, tricks, and even how to overclock your TI - yes, overcloking (at the cost of a warranty?) - you can go here:
http://www.ticalc.org

Just my $0.02

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[This message has been edited by hyperextreme (edited August 01, 2001).]

foob

08-01-2001, 09:15 PM

Nearly all high level math courses do not not ban calculators of any kind because they are pretty useless. You can't prove **** with the most powerful calculator in the word. The most powerful computer in the world can't prove fermat's last theorem can it. Use a cheap 10 dollar scientific calculator for all your calculations. Anything more and either use a computer program on your computer or sch computer lab or just use your brains. http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/smile.gif

Er... all readers should focus only on the smiley face and ignore all other words above.

THE REASON professors ban calculators in tests is because a student may be poor (like me) and not afford to buy an expensive calculator, thus disadvantaging him/her from another student who has the most powerful calculator in the world.

So...

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[This message has been edited by foob (edited August 01, 2001).]

foob

08-01-2001, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by al bundy:
Again, if a student cannot perform any rather simple mathematical details involved, it's clearly not the fault of any calculator... it's the fault of their previous educators, and perhaps the motivation of the actual student in question.

Actually, it's the fault of the student. Because when doing homework, the student should understand how to work the calculations first, before using a calculator to speed up the process. If on an exam he cannot answer a question because he does not have a calculator, it's obviously he's own fault. Why are you blaming his/her previous educator?

And lastly, I must admit, the so high and mighty attitude you display in your posts is the only reason I write this.

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[This message has been edited by foob (edited August 01, 2001).]

JDenis_007

08-01-2001, 11:22 PM

I have a TI-86 and I must say I am fully satisfied with it. It does everything I could possibly need. So unless you have very specific needs, I would reccomend getting one. Plus, there are a whole lot of softwares available for it, both educationnals and games(great for boring philosophy classes http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/biggrin.gif) so I would definitely reccomend getting a link cable.

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al bundy

08-02-2001, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by foob:
Nearly all high level math courses do not not ban calculators of any kind because they are pretty useless. You can't prove **** with the most powerful calculator in the word. (sic)

LOL - Now that's funny! Of course you can prove many results using the CAS of a modern powerful calculator, just not things such as Fermat's Last Theorem (yet). You really should reflect a bit foob before saying silly stuff like that!

Originally posted by foob:

THE REASON professors ban calculators in tests is because a student may be poor (like me) and not afford to buy an expensive calculator, thus disadvantaging him/her from another student who has the most powerful calculator in the world.

Totally absurd! The reason it's done is as I said in my above posts. Are you a mathematics professor foob? Then don't pretend you know these reasons, you are embarassingly incorrect.

Originally posted by foob:

Actually, it's the fault of the student. Because when doing homework, the student should understand how to work the calculations first, before using a calculator to speed up the process. If on an exam he cannot answer a question because he does not have a calculator, it's obviously he's own fault. Why are you blaming his/her previous educator?

Math courses build upon one another, and if a student's prior courses were improperly taught - or worse, if a previous math instructor provided contradictory and/or false mathematical info - then clearly a student will be ill-prepared to take on the content of the subsequent math course. So, sometimes it is the fault of the previous educator. This is considered obvious to most students, as well as to the current mathematics teaching community... why isn't it obvious to you foob?

Originally posted by foob:

And lastly, I must admit, the so high and mighty attitude you display in your posts is the only reason I write this.

As opposed to you actually having something accurate to say, right?

Edit: In the future foob you should try harder not to confuse a high and mighty attitude with the attitude of somebody who actually knows what they're talking about. It just makes you appear more ignorant!

[This message has been edited by al bundy (edited August 02, 2001).]

foob

08-02-2001, 11:38 AM

I rest my case *falls down laughing*

"Yes Mr. Shoe salesman.. all my base belong to you"
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[This message has been edited by foob (edited August 02, 2001).]

al bundy

08-02-2001, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by foob:
I rest my case *falls down laughing*

"Yes Mr. Shoe salesman.. all my base belong to you"

As well you should. Did I mention I played highschool football, and once scored four touchdowns in a single game? Now, off to the Jiggly Room I go... http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Klashe

08-03-2001, 12:08 PM

LOL! Debates over graphing calculators! Too FUNNY!

Jr916

08-04-2001, 08:36 PM

i would reccomend a Ti 92 plus it is the best one out there and sells for around 150, it can do very complex constructions and has a full keyboard wich is nice. It links to the computer and has a good deal of memory.

I personally ha an 83 plus and it is great but the next one i want something that can allow me to do 3d graphing

Superbob

08-04-2001, 11:52 PM

Yeah, the HP's are good for engineers who do a lot of math at work, but they probably aren't the best choice for college students.

Most of the professors teach with TI calculators, and most text books only show how to solve problems with TI calcs as well. If you get an HP, you might have trouble figuring out to use it, and no one will be able to help you figure it out.

So, my advice would be to ask the professor what calculators they teach with and allow in class. Many professors have a grudge against the TI-89's and 92's, because they do much of the work for you. Just put in numbers, and they'll give you the answers. Good idea in theory, but professors get worried when students use the calculator as a crutch, instead of learning the theory behind the formulas.

I personally used a TI-85 to get though high school AND college, and it worked great in every class. It's a dinosaur now, so you'll probably end up with a TI-83 Plus or something better.

Originally posted by driver:
I would go with an HP. Either the 48G or 49G. They use a stack based interface which, once you get used to, you will find far superior. In addition, they do just about everything that the TIs do. I have the 48GX and have found it invaluable in my college engineering courses. The only real drawback is that most people don't have them, though serious engineers do, so if your looking to get help from others, it may be a little difficult.
http://www.hp.com/calculators/graphing/49g_info.html

Superbob

08-05-2001, 12:04 AM

Wow, I'm dumbfounded. There must be hundreds of cheap TI,HP, and Casio calculators on EBay! These people must hate doing math even more than I do! http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/smile.gif

Originally posted by kbcr3:
pick one up on www.ebay.com (http://www.ebay.com)
i got one of my ti-83plus for 60 bucks. used, but does that ever make a difference.

al bundy

08-08-2001, 04:21 AM

Originally posted by Superbob:
Many professors have a grudge against the TI-89's and 92's, because they do much of the work for you. Just put in numbers, and they'll give you the answers. Good idea in theory, but professors get worried when students use the calculator as a crutch, instead of learning the theory behind the formulas.

Actually, the real primary reason those professors have a problem with these great new machines is a bit different than the "crutch" argument, although that is often the case some teachers will make.

The real reason is this: These new machines require the professor to come up with new teaching strategies - ones that focus more on the concepts themselves, and less on the mechanical algebraic steps involved in the solution processes. Coming up with, as well as implementing, these new teaching strategies takes work, creativity, and the patience to evolve these strategies to a level most beneficial to the students. Along with the high work demand already made on teachers, the additional work involved in creating and executing these new teaching approaches and techniques is often not welcomed by those in the teaching community.

This is changing though, as technology can't be simply "run away from" in today's society. Professors, as well as teaching approaches, will change - although sometimes reluctantly. http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/cool.gif

[This message has been edited by al bundy (edited August 08, 2001).]

Milz

08-12-2001, 01:33 AM

Al- I very much agree with most of what you say, calculators can free the students from tedious calculations, and allow them to focus on concepts, however I also believe there is some validity to the point that some students become dependent on them, and helpless without them. If you give a student a TI-89 for calculus I it's like giving an third grader a 4-function calculator to teach him multiplication. You can't do that, you need to show him that his lego block is 2x4 dots and let him count 8 total. As you stated before, mathmatics bulids on itself. In the same way that the learning of basic arithmatic operations in elementary school can't be circumvented, neither can the basic caclulus operations like derivation and integration. Students need to study for and be tested on this material without their calculators. Hoverver, once the student's skills are firmly established then the calculator is, I agree, an invaluable tool. It is a waste of time for a student in calc III to have to search for a pattern that will allow him to perform a simple integration by parts, when his calculator can do it. At that point it allows the student to avoid the redundancy of working a problem that is conceptually simple for him. He must know though, what integration by parts is, and not simply that his calculator can integrate the function. To sum up my rambling: If the functions the calculator can perform are more advanced than the student's conceptual knowledge, it will not help the student to learn those concepts. If the student's conceptual knowledge is on a level with the calculator's capabilities then it will save him time and help him to build his next level of skills faster.

BTW I am not an educator, nor do I hold any pretensions of being one. Perhaps you are, you sound like it, and if I've missed something feel free to enlighten me, it's more interesting when I'm wrong. http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/smile.gif

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al bundy

08-14-2001, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by Milz:
If you give a student a TI-89 for calculus I it's like giving an third grader a 4-function calculator to teach him multiplication... In the same way that the learning of basic arithmatic operations in elementary school can't be circumvented, neither can the basic caclulus operations like derivation and integration.

It is a waste of time for a student in calc III to have to search for a pattern that will allow him to perform a simple integration by parts, when his calculator can do it... He must know though, what integration by parts is, and not simply that his calculator can integrate the function.

If the functions the calculator can perform are more advanced than the student's conceptual knowledge, it will not help the student to learn those concepts.

Hi Milz - I will respond to your good points in the manner of a current mathematics education reform believer, using calculus for the platform as you did in your above post. The opening discussion usually begins with some careful questions...

Why should limit-based operations such as differentiation and integration be considered and treated in the same spirit as are the basic arithmetic operations? Many learning-theory specialists today argue that the learning of foundation level 'finger-counting' math concepts in no way resembles the learning of the concepts of higher-order mathematics branches, either in the concept assimilation stage or in workplace practice.

Why specifically should a lower-division calculus student be made to learn a manual technique such as 'integration by parts' or 'trigonometric substitution'? That is, what purpose exactly does that serve for a student at that level, either toward their learning-development or toward their possible future professional practice?

Why shouldn't a modern tool, such as a computer-algebra-system on a TI-89, be used effectively to provide a student with better access to the concepts of calculus? After all, isn't it precisely the concepts underlying the techniques - rather than the techniques themselves - that should be the point of the mathematical education at that level?

Edit: At this point, a mathematics education reformer will most often take a moment to hear the replies to these questions, before continuing...

[This message has been edited by al bundy (edited August 14, 2001).]

Milz

08-15-2001, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by al bundy:

Why should limit-based operations such as differentiation and integration be considered and treated in the same spirit as are the basic arithmetic operations? Many learning-theory specialists today argue that the learning of foundation level 'finger-counting' math concepts in no way resembles the learning of the concepts of higher-order mathematics branches, either in the concept assimilation stage or in workplace practic
In this sense they should be treated the same simply because they are unfamiliar operations, and the learner will not come to understand the operation's mechanism simply by seeing an input and an output. A monkey, could be taught to push the buttons of a calculator and communicate it's output, but that doesn't let him understand what multiplication is. The same thing happens when you teach a student to hit the integrate key on his calculator and write down the answer in a test blank. He needs to focus on the concept of what integration is, we agree on that, but I think he also needs to do it by hand at least a few times, so that he knows where his calculator got the number.

Originally posted by al bundy:

Why specifically should a lower-division calculus student be made to learn a manual technique such as 'integration by parts' or 'trigonometric substitution'? That is, what purpose exactly does that serve for a student at that level, either toward their learning-development or toward their possible future professional practice?

I suppose that depends on what the student's future career is, and their personal level of curiosity. Many people can obviously get by without theese skills. I believe, however, that there is more to math than reaching an answer. Learning different ways to approach a problem, and seeing the innovation of those who have come before us, without a TI, helps to foster problem solving skillsadn a way of thinking which I believe are necesary for anyone who wishes to innovate themselves.

Originally posted by al bundy:

Why shouldn't a modern tool, such as a computer-algebra-system on a TI-89, be used effectively to provide a student with better access to the concepts of calculus? After all, isn't it precisely the concepts underlying the techniques - rather than the techniques themselves - that should be the point of the mathematical education at that level?

My whole point is that calculators don't teach concepts, they give answers. If those answers help someone learn a more complex issue faster that's great, but I have seen many students learn which button to push so that they can pass the test, and then they completely ignore the concepts. How do you design a test that allows a TI89 and that will accuratly guage a student's knowledge of concepts? The only questions like that I've seen have been ones where the calculator isn't necesary anyway. Where calculators are important is when numbers don't come out nice and neat, like all real world data, but when you give a student a real world problem he can push buttons and give you a real world answer without the teacher knowing whether he really understands what's going on.

Originally posted by al bundy:

Edit: At this point, a mathematics education reformer will most often take a moment to hear the replies to these questions, before continuing...

[This message has been edited by al bundy (edited August 14, 2001).]

Is 'Mathematics Education Reformer' a political party or something? It sounds like you're saying anyone who wants to reform mathematics has the same opinions you do. I'm certainly not a member of a conservative old guard or anything. I just don't believe a student should give a teacher an answer he obtained by pushing a key, when he doesn't know what the key really means.

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Milz

08-15-2001, 01:42 AM

BTW, Trigonometric substitution may be one thing that can be skipped over. If the student understands basic trigonometric functions and algebraic substitution there's really no new concepts. Their only purpose is to make things fit cookie-cutter formulas in a book.

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al bundy

08-15-2001, 04:50 AM

Originally posted by Milz:
...A monkey, could be taught to push the buttons of a calculator and communicate it's output, but that doesn't let him understand what multiplication is. The same thing happens when you teach a student to hit the integrate key on his calculator and write down the answer in a test blank. He needs to focus on the concept of what integration is, we agree on that, but I think he also needs to do it by hand at least a few times, so that he knows where his calculator got the number.

With current technology, examinations that would only require a student to "punch and write" would certainly be poor examinations indeed. Don't you know and agree that very good examination questions can be written which measure the degree of a student's concept comprehension, and are far removed from the style you describe above? Writing good examinations is considered an art-form in itself by educators, and the current technology forces us to rethink the "whats and hows" of good examination questions and formats. Focusing on this new style of examination writing is still a bit new to the math ed community, but is highly effective when it is done properly and with good professional insight.

Also, BTW: You certainly don't believe that a calculator uses the same process to find derivatives, integrals, or even logarithms, etc. that the human being does... do you? Few people are ever really aware of exactly "how their calculator got the number". For instance, do you personally know the specific algorithms your calculator implements to calculate such things as trig function values? These are numerical algorithms, which don't generally resemble the computational steps that the human being uses to calculate - and this example actually further illustrates and reiterates my above points about concept focus.

Originally posted by Milz:
...I suppose that depends on what the student's future career is... Many people can obviously get by without theese skills... I believe, however, that there is more to math than reaching an answer. Learning different ways to approach a problem...

These are some of the specific points that math ed reformers themselves make, but in support of the opposite point from yours. The usual goal of a college education is not merely to satisfy somebody's personal curiosity... in fact, most people in college today are there for a very different reason, viz. to get a good resume item and to hopefully land a 'good job' afterward. It's quite an understatement to say that most people can 'get by' without knowing how to, say, integrate by parts - in fact they never need to know how to do a technique like that, even if their profession requires calculus skills (which is itself quite rare).

And also, why is it so hard to conceive of technology being effectively utilized in academia as a main way to approach a problem? The technological approach is by far the most common one taken in professional practice, in fact it is even now by working mathematicians!

Originally posted by Milz:
...My whole point is that calculators don't teach concepts, they give answers...I have seen many students learn which button to push so that they can pass the test, and then they completely ignore the concepts. How do you design a test that allows a TI89 and that will accuratly guage a student's knowledge of concepts? The only questions like that I've seen have been ones where the calculator isn't necesary anyway. Where calculators are important is when numbers don't come out nice and neat, like all real world data, but when you give a student a real world problem he can push buttons and give you a real world answer without the teacher knowing whether he really understands what's going on...

The point here is not to ask the calculator to teach. The point is utilizing the calculator as a powerful tool to aid the teaching and learning process, by providing students with better access to the important concepts themselves. Calculators don't anymore just 'give answers'. And if you haven't seen good tests that measure a students concept comprehension when a modern calculator is available, you've probably either been out of school for a while or have witnessed the fault of teachers that still need lots of work bringing their curriculum and teaching up to speed to effectively incorporate technology. It is a changing need of the times, and makes for a better and more relevant course when this is done. Good exam questions require the student to demonstrate recognition of the important concepts, and also to demonstrate their skill in properly setting up a problem prior to attacking it with technology (real world data or not). This has always been the reality in the workplace, so why shouldn't it be a reality in the classroom as well?

Originally posted by Milz:
...Is 'Mathematics Education Reformer' a political party or something? It sounds like you're saying anyone who wants to reform mathematics has the same opinions you do. I'm certainly not a member of a conservative old guard or anything. I just don't believe a student should give a teacher an answer he obtained by pushing a key, when he doesn't know what the key really means... BTW, Trigonometric substitution may be one thing that can be skipped over. If the student understands basic trigonometric functions and algebraic substitution there's really no new concepts. Their only purpose is to make things fit cookie-cutter formulas in a book.

LOL - Sometimes it does feel alot like a political party! Neither do I think that simply "pushing a key" is an appropriate demonstration to a teacher that learning has taken place. This was never the point being made, don't you see? The point is about concept comprehension, and this can be measured effectively simply by designing examinations which focus more on the 'recognition and setup' stages of solution rather than merely on the 'final execution' stage of computation. To take any of this in a different way would be to miss the important points being made here entirely. Please don't do that!

And your point about eliminating trig substitution could equally be made about things like 'integration by parts' for instance too, as well as a host of other things in lower-division math curriculum that are totally irrelevant to the students involved and their future career experiences.

These topics, i.e. about math reform of both curriculum and pedagogy, currently form a lively and heated debate involving math educators from all levels and from all around the world. I have personally participated in professional discussions on a national level regarding these issues. A general concensus among educators is emerging, but not everyone agrees with one another of course - and it is an extremely time-consuming and tedious process to overcome old traditions and boilerplate teaching practices, even when they are no longer relevant or meaningful to the learners involved. We need to assist our college students to be better prepared for the actual realities of the society (and world) they will face outside of academia, and help them to become more effective and productive citizens without also wasting time in school on ideas which don't pertain to these important goals. Now if one is going to be a mathematician, such things as we're discussing above will in fact be much more important, and will better fit into the upper-division curriculum - although along with a healthy dose of tech as well! http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/cool.gif

Klashe

08-16-2001, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by al bundy:
LOL - Sometimes it does feel alot like a political party! Neither do I think that simply "pushing a key" is an appropriate demonstration to a teacher that learning has taken place. This was never the point being made, don't you see? The point is about concept comprehension, and this can be measured effectively simply by designing examinations which focus more on the 'recognition and setup' stages of solution rather than merely on the 'final execution' stage of computation. To take any of this in a different way would be to miss the important points being made here entirely. Please don't do that!

And your point about eliminating trig substitution could equally be made about things like 'integration by parts' for instance too, as well as a host of other things in lower-division math curriculum that are totally irrelevant to the students involved and their future career experiences.

These topics, i.e. about math reform of both curriculum and pedagogy, currently form a lively and heated debate involving math educators from all levels and from all around the world. I have personally participated in professional discussions on a national level regarding these issues. A general concensus among educators is emerging, but not everyone agrees with one another of course - and it is an extremely time-consuming and tedious process to overcome old traditions and boilerplate teaching practices, even when they are no longer relevant or meaningful to the learners involved. We need to assist our college students to be better prepared for the actual realities of the society (and world) they will face outside of academia, and help them to become more effective and productive citizens without also wasting time in school on ideas which don't pertain to these important goals. Now if one is going to be a mathematician, such things as we're discussing above will in fact be much more important, and will better fit into the upper-division curriculum - although along with a healthy dose of tech as well! http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/cool.gif

I think he should get an HP. http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

foob

08-16-2001, 06:10 PM

By making a student learn how to integrate by parts without using a calculator, he/she is forced to think.. that is one of the reasons universities make students take math courses... because mathematics help develop people's minds.. It doesn't matter whether the question is conceptual or not. Because the end result that the low level course is suppose to produce is a more thinking person. Learning how to press a calculator obviously does not aid in the development of one's mind. But, I would have to agree that a calculator is useful, to let's say, an engineer who wants to integrate a math problem to solve a real life problem. (and that comes in engineering courses not pure math courses which do not deal with application). And that will validate why students should learn how to use the calculator.. but that is totally separate from the point of developing one's mind through the solving of math problems by hand, which is what low level math courses require.

Edit: And can you please write shorter replies, my eyes hurt.
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[This message has been edited by foob (edited August 16, 2001).]

al bundy

08-16-2001, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by foob:
By making a student learn how to integrate by parts without using a calculator, he/she is forced to think.. It doesn't matter whether the question is conceptual or not... Learning how to press a calculator obviously does not aid in the development of one's mind... pure math courses do not deal with application... the point of developing one's mind through the solving of math problems by hand...
Edit: And can you please write shorter replies, my eyes hurt.

http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif Holy Jeebus foob, I strongly disagree with every single thing you just said! I'm still having trouble believing you actually said those things. Most (if not all) professional math educators would strongly disagree with every single one of your above comments too. Oh well, to each his (or her) own... a variety of opinions makes a thread more interesting. http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Hope the length of this reply didn't hurt your peepers! http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Hateslife

08-16-2001, 07:50 PM

While most people will scream at me, TI-89's and 92's are banned for virtually all standardized tests, such as the ACT and SAT's, since they have symbolic representation and whatnot... Damn are they sweet calculators though.

And of course, like the Ti-83 and 86, there are sweet games http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/wink.gif

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jxo

08-16-2001, 10:22 PM

Here's a good test for everyone to take: If you need a calculator to do this, then you are overly dependant on technology, or very rusty.

51/17 = ?
(sin 60)^2 = ?
sqroot((sin 36)^2 + (sin 54)^2)) = ?
11x34 = ?
log(1000) = ?
e^(pi*i)+1 = ? (tough guys only)

And if you think the following is true, then you are helplessly inflicted with calculator addiction:

(1/3)*3= 0.999999999999

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glock

08-17-2001, 04:23 AM

The TI-89 VS HP 49G Calculator Comparison: http://www.technoplaza.net/calculators/49vs89.html

glock

08-17-2001, 09:07 PM

By the way, are there any decent pc software calculator programs?

G19

08-17-2001, 09:23 PM

If you mean mathematics software, Maple.

al bundy

08-18-2001, 01:54 AM

Originally posted by glock:
By the way, are there any decent pc software calculator programs?

Maple is great, so are Mathematica and Derive for PC computer algebra systems. Mathematica and Maple each work as plug-ins for Excel as well. For numerical work Matlab is a good one, and for statistical there's SPSS. The CAS on the TI-89 and TI-92 is a special version of Derive.

Lots of others too, those are just some of my personal favorites. http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/smile.gif

Milz

08-19-2001, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by al bundy:
Writing good examinations is considered an art-form in itself by educators, and the current technology forces us to rethink the "whats and hows" of good examination questions and formats. Focusing on this new style of examination writing is still a bit new to the math ed community, but is highly effective when it is done properly and with good professional insight.

I couldn't agree more, but it will take a long time for those masterpiece tests are prevalent over the classic style of test. Until they are, a student taking classic style tests is still in danger of ignoring concepts and becoming calculator dependent, unless his calculator use is occasionally restricted.
Originally posted by al bundy:
...help them to become more effective and productive citizens without also wasting time in school on ideas which don't pertain to these important goals. Now if one is going to be a mathematician, such things as we're discussing above will in fact be much more important,
I think that this is the center of our disagreement. Assuming your methods are properly implemented, the question isn't whether to always allow calculators or to restrict them on occasion, but whether we want to train engineers or mathematicians. Engineering is certainly more practical for society and a more common career path, but is it a class on engineering or on math? I suppose those who were born to be mathematicians will be able to see things anyway, and won't need to be taught methods of problem solving, and the masses can be taught engineering math.

BTW, yes I am aware that there isn't a homonuceus with a pencil and slide rule inside my calculator. They use something similar to a Riemann sum for integration, correct?

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G19

08-20-2001, 12:18 AM

Regarding mathematics programs. MathCad 2001 Pro is one of the most extensive ones for engineering applications at around $1000.

al bundy

08-20-2001, 12:51 AM

Originally posted by Milz:
I couldn't agree more, but it will take a long time for those masterpiece tests are prevalent over the classic style of test.

Actually these types of tests don't need to be "masterpieces" in that sense at all, they are just simply written to contemplate a student using technology. It also isn't taking a long time at all for these tests to become common, in fact I believe that what you probably mean by the "classic style" of test is already fast disappearing in the face of the realities of current technology - and the need to prepare students for today's real world. Further, most current-edition mathematics texts not only make lots of specific suggestions for examinations using technology, they also frequently include samples of such exams - and others even provide a working series of such exams to be used with their text.

Originally posted by Milz:
...is it a class on engineering or on math? I suppose those who were born to be mathematicians will be able to see things anyway, and won't need to be taught methods of problem solving, and the masses can be taught engineering math.

The big idea here is that these important methods of problem solving are important to everybody, and are in fact able to be taught very well in a technology-friendly mathematics course. This is true whether or not the material (or the student) is more-or-less inclined toward engineering, or toward any other mathematical client-discipline for that matter.

Originally posted by Milz:
BTW, yes I am aware that there isn't a homonuceus with a pencil and slide rule inside my calculator. They use something similar to a Riemann sum for integration, correct?

No, a purely Riemann-sum style algorithm is usually not used today for a modern calculator's internal numerical integration routines - they are not nearly as efficient and don't come with a ready-made error bound formula. More common numerical quadrature routines we have in use today for calculators include variations of Simpson's Rule, or else certain highly-specific implementations of Newton-Cotes, Romberg, Gauss-Legendre, or even Sard-Meyers methods. Now, the numerical calculator-based routines used for multidimensional integration are more complicated, and so are all of the purely algebraic CAS integration routines... those features are another story entirely!

Edit: I wonder if up there you probably instead meant to say a "homunculus"? LOL - That's funny! http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by al bundy (edited August 20, 2001).]

foob

08-21-2001, 11:06 AM

You sure know a lot about calculators, but you don't know anything about college.

Milz's 2nd point is what I've been telling you for so long, but you totally disagree anyway, so forget it.
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[This message has been edited by foob (edited August 21, 2001).]

al bundy

08-21-2001, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by foob:
You sure know a lot about calculators, but you don't know anything about college.

Milz's 2nd point is what I've been telling you for so long, but you totally disagree anyway, so forget it.

Wow, once again you are just so mistaken foob. I know a heluva lot more about college than you do, and likely more than you ever will too. Once again you make statements that reveal your ignorance. http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Foob you can tell people your own opinions all you like, but at least in this case, people who really know what they're talking about (both students and teachers) are going to consistently disagree with you.

Edit: But like I keep telling you, a variety of opinions on a thread at least make it more interesting. http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by al bundy (edited August 21, 2001).]

Milz

08-23-2001, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by al bundy:
[B]I believe that what you probably mean by the "classic style" of test is already fast disappearing [B]

Maybe in your ivory tower, not in the text I used or the high school I graduated from. Which, by the way is not some underfunded inner city school, it's actually one of the best public high schools in Minnesota. The books were new editions selected by the math department. And don't tell me I just got a bad teacher, because I didn't. As to the second point; don't pick at my words. I obviously meant mathematical problem solving skills, not general problem solving skills.
Thirdly, yes I meant homunculus, no I don't spell check my posts, and the key word was 'similar'. Meaning that generally speaking, calculators approximate integration with a summation rather than finding a perfect answer algebraically. I haven't taken any higher level math classes, so all that stuff you said means nothing to me. If you want to explain a concept to me, go ahead, but don't just list things to make yourself sound smarter. You're awfully arrogant for someone who thinks he knows so much about teaching.

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al bundy

08-24-2001, 03:09 AM

Originally posted by Milz:
Maybe in your ivory tower, not in the text I used or the high school I graduated from... And don't tell me I just got a bad teacher...

You're original post up above wasn't really quite coherent there Milz, so I can only attempt to address whatever it is you're trying to say and hope I get close!

You might happen to notice that the majority of this thread is about college math education, and that is what I too am mainly discussing here. College isn't so much an "ivory tower" don't-cha-know... but you will find that college math education does in fact differ in very many important respects from K-12 education (or at least I hope you will eventually find that). If you're proud of your high school, well then good for you - but that doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with the issues of technology use in college-level math education, or anywhere else for that matter.

And although there are some behind-the-times math teachers out there, the issue with your situation specifically Milz isn't necessarily about whether your own prior teachers were bad or not... the issue here is the use of modern technology in math education, both now and in the future. Can't you see that's what we're actually talking about here? It appears you're heavily missing the point, and you might be having some trouble following along here.

Originally posted by Milz:
...don't pick at my words... I obviously meant mathematical problem solving skills, not general problem solving skills...

Well, of course you (and all the rest of us) are referring to mathematical problem solving skills, rather than just general-level problem solving skills... I don't even know *** you're talking about Milz when you try to clarify that point.

Originally posted by Milz:
...generally speaking, calculators approximate integration with a summation rather than finding a perfect answer algebraically...I haven't taken any higher level math classes, so all that stuff you said means nothing to me...don't just list things to make yourself sound smarter. You're awfully arrogant for someone who thinks he knows so much about teaching.

Milz, when people list things it doesn't imply they are trying to make themselves look smarter... maybe they are just giving you way too much credit toward understanding the answer. You had actually asked if calculators use a method similar to Riemann style summation to do a numerical approximation for an integral, don't you remember Milz? You didn't write-out the theory of Riemann-style integration, you just referred to the method by name. And my answer to you was no, those types of numerical routines are not generally used internally anymore by modern calculators, certain others (not so similar to the Riemann-style approach) are more often used now instead - followed by a short list that I gave you of some of those other methods, referring to them by name. It's not my fault if the answer was over your head Milz, and no I'm obviously not going to take the time and space here to carefully explain to you all the gory-details of what those other numerical routines involve. You're going to have to be content with a reasonable answer here in this forum. If your current level of education doesn't allow the answer to mean anything to you right now, then that's your problem at this moment Milz. I guess you will just have to either look them up, or else knuckle-down and take some college-level mathematics courses if you want to become educated on what those other numerical routines for integration are all about. This is not the place for you to get that education.

Edit: In addition to becoming confused easily and needing to learn how to spell without a spell-checker, I think one of your main difficulties Milz is that you mistake arrogance with the tone someone takes who really does know what they're talking about. You really should try hard to get over that, if you ever want to make any real progress. Maybe if you ever actually do any mathematics teaching, then you will become qualified to talk about it too! Until that ever happens, however, you desperately need to become more receptive to those ideas that may differ from your own but are coming from somebody with a more experienced perspective than yours. Good luck with that, I do hope you will be able to achieve it! http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by al bundy (edited August 24, 2001).]

Milz

08-24-2001, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by al bundy:
college math education does in fact differ in very many important respects from K-12 education (or at least I hope you will eventually find that).

Actually, the course I took at my high school was AP, which is college level, and I recieved credit for it at my current school. I have been told that AP is generally more difficult than equivalent college classes. I think that probably my experience with basic calc was better than what most people will get, and I'm using my experience to illustrate the point that the majority of the world may not be as advanced in their teaching techniques as you believe.

Originally posted by al bundy:
clarify that point.
Your previous response was that everyone needs problem solving skills, but you said earlier there were some problem solving techniques that were only important to mathematicians, and not practical in the rest of the world. I was referring only to those, not the ones that everyone needs.

Originally posted by al bundy:
I'm obviously not going to take the time and space here to carefully explain to you all the gory-details of what those other numerical routines involve.

I didn't ask you to. I referred to a technique by name because it was already established that you were familiar with a level of math higher than that. I asked a question, which implies that I am not. Therefore you should have known that it wouldn't be useful to me for you to list all that. If you had mentioned one or two things then yes, I would probably go look them up, but that sounded like a whole course or two worth of knowledge, which I'm obviously not going to go learn right now. As to 'knuckling down' maybe you should know something about a person before you start making implications about his work ethic. I will be taking more math classes, but my schedule for this semester is full.

Originally posted by al bundy:
Maybe if you ever actually do any mathematics teaching, then you will become qualified to talk about it too! Until that ever happens, however, you desperately need to become more receptive to those ideas that may differ from your own but are coming from somebody with a more experienced perspective than yours. Good luck with that, I do hope you will be able to achieve it!
I'm touched that you're so interested in my personal development. You're saying that because I've never taught a math class that I'm not qualified to talk about it? And you say I'm unreceptive? You have no reason to say I'm 'easily confused' I consider that to be a personal attack, far off topic, and completly unqualified.
If you really aren't arrogant, then maybe you need to think about your word choice a little more. Also criticizing me for a simple speliling mistake, and saying that no one else's opinion is even worth considering doesn't make you sound any better.

I'm sick of this, we've digressed too far from the topic to get back to it, even without the adversarial tone we've taken up. I'd appreciate it if a moderator would shut this thread down.

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al bundy

08-24-2001, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by Milz:
Actually, the course I took at my high school was AP... I have been told that AP is generally more difficult than equivalent college classes.

You were probably misled there Milz. Take some college calculus courses for comparison, you'll see firsthand! You're not in a position to make that assessment yet.

Originally posted by Milz:
Your previous response was that everyone needs problem solving skills, but you said earlier there were some problem solving techniques that were only important to mathematicians, and not practical in the rest of the world. I was referring only to those, not the ones that everyone needs.

But the point you were missing is that both sets of problem-solving skills I've referred to - those that are important only to mathematicians, as well as those math skills that are important to non-mathematicians - are still mathematical skills, regardless. Thus, they are entirely relevant here to the discussion here on the use of technology in math education. Get it?

Originally posted by Milz:
I referred to a technique by name because it was already established that you were familiar with a level of math higher than that. I asked a question, which implies that I am not. Therefore you should have known that it wouldn't be useful to me for you to list all that... that sounded like a whole course or two worth of knowledge, which I'm obviously not going to go learn...

LOL - that's funny! http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/biggrin.gif So, you're willing to ask a question about something you don't know about - but then you whine like that if you get a complete answer to your question, which includes target-areas for your further education. Hilarious! http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/tongue.gif You really shouldn't get so intimidated Milz when a direct answer includes a list of items you must learn more about in order for you to more fully understand the answer to your question. Sheesh! http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Originally posted by Milz:
I will be taking more math classes, but my schedule for this semester is full...

Good, there's hope! You'll need to address that whining problem though - none of your math teachers are going to appreciate that... http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/wink.gif

Originally posted by Milz:
You're saying that because I've never taught a math class that I'm not qualified to talk about it? And you say I'm unreceptive?

Yes, and yes. I know that looks like a list, try not to get nervous... take deep breaths... http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Originally posted by Milz:
You have no reason to say I'm 'easily confused'

You bet I have a reason... just look at your above posts! http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/tongue.gif

[This message has been edited by al bundy (edited August 24, 2001).]

al bundy

08-24-2001, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by Milz:
Also criticizing me for a simple speliling mistake, and saying that no one else's opinion is even worth considering doesn't make you sound any better.

Relax man! I wasn't criticizing you about your spelling mistakes, I was just joking about them with you. http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/wink.gif And I never said that "no one else's opinion is even worth considering"... you just made that up, didn't you Milz? Everyone's opinion is worth considering, just not always are their opinions worth accepting. You really should know that Milz - and you should also learn to be much more receptive when someone with more experience than you have on a topic disagrees with you. It will definitely help you to learn more.

Originally posted by Milz:
I'm sick of this, we've digressed too far from the topic to get back to it, even without the adversarial tone we've taken up.

More whining. Geez Milz, can't you see that this thread had digressed far from the original topic long before you entered it! And I disagree, the tone is not adversarial - but at times the tones are distinctly not in agreement. Reasonable people often disagree, and that is not only OK but also is good for the discussion. If you don't like the discussion here Milz, than leave and stay out of the thread.

I trust the moderator Klashe. If this thread does get closed, than I certainly won't be heartbroken about it and I think we'll all understand. After all, it does get a bit redundant to have the same things getting repeated so frequently in the discussion. But if it doesn't get closed, then I might like to pop-in every now and then to see the new opinions being expressed... http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by al bundy (edited August 24, 2001).]

Superbob

08-24-2001, 10:05 PM

Wow! You guys sure take your calculators seriously! Who knew that a topic this mundane would spark such a big debate? Amazing.

G19

08-27-2001, 12:46 AM

Hey, I didn't know Hewlett-Packard made graphing calculators:
http://www.hp.com/calculators/graphing/49g_info.html

G19

09-03-2001, 09:54 PM

bump!

I owe you this Al. Where's Mofo? What calc did he end up buying? I see Klashe put in his vote for the HP. As did I.

bobgod007

09-04-2001, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by Milz:
I've never heard of a TI-89 not being allowed where other calculators are. The only grounds I know of for restricting a calculator are a QWERTY keyboard or an IR port, and the ones with an IR are usually allowed if the port is covered with tape. AlBundy is probably right that the 92 is gaining more acceptance, but I would buy an 89 anyway, just to be safe. One huge advantage of an 89 over the 86 or 83 is that it can use mathematical symbols for just about everything, this is particularily useful for calc 1 and 2. It's nice to be able to enter everything the way you see it in the book rather than translating it to TI commands first.

After you learn to do it the long way of course http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Milz (edited August 12, 2001).]

Thats true, but also, in alot of college classes, you don't even get to use a calculator. I haven't touched a calculator (for classwork) in probably 3 years. Get used to doing it by hand...thats the moral of the story http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/biggrin.gif.

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bobgod007

09-04-2001, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by GARRIN19:
Hey, I didn't know Hewlett-Packard made graphing calculators:
http://www.hp.com/calculators/graphing/49g_info.html

My first graphing calculator was a HP-48GX, it was 220 bucks and I got it in 8th grade I think. I hated RPN (a backward *** data entry method called reverse polish notation), but it was incredibly versatile, it could do everything from 3d graphing (which no calculator could do at the time) to measruing IR levels in a room upto controlling a TV. It had its fair share of games too. Sadly I broke the LCD when it was in my backpack one day because of the softcase.

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lostlilchild6

09-08-2001, 10:57 PM

umm, my dad bought a TI 92.. its a nice calculator, kinda looks like my old SEGA GAME GEAR, lol. http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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G19

09-19-2001, 04:55 PM

Actually I find that Radio Shack sells a nice reliable product in the calculator catagory. I've owned my EC-4032 (Scientific Calculator) for 10 years and it works fine now.

What is the benchmark for graphing calculators? I don't have a trained eye for buyer beware issues, like the other hardcore's here.

wowzers

09-30-2001, 01:45 PM

well to start off, mofo probably already bought his calc, but i found the lowest prices on yahoo shopping. i still don't know if i made the right choice between a ti-89(cheaper) and a hp-49g(step by step).

now for the debate for the use or not to use a calc, i kinda agree with both sides. using a calc in my engineering classes allows me to focus on the concepts and not worry about the calculus they are based on, but in a calculus class i beleive it has the opposite effect. sure using a ti-83 can only benefit you during these types of math classes because its functions are limited, but then there are the big dogs- ti89/92 and hp 49g. these are designed to solve any type of problem you throw at them with minimal thought. i don't even know how teachers could design a class around these types of machines, like "al" said, and still keep the student learning. its like taking a spanish class and bringing in a handheld translator. in all the calc classes i've taken i've not been allowed to use a calculator on any exams. the prof. always said they were more interested in the work than the final answer.

babbles

10-05-2001, 12:47 AM

Ack, my eyes started to glaze over after reading thru most of these posts.

Anyhow, I would vote for the TI-89. It will probably do everything you need it to do.

Is the TI89 really worth the extra $30-40? I'm entering as a Biological Sciences major and I dunno if I ought to shell out the extra dough...I don't think i'll be taking a lot of the harder/advanced Math courses

If it is worth anything my undergrad is a BS in Biology, so I was in the same boat as you and I got thru the first half of college on a TI-82 then on a TI-89; you would have to pry that calculator from my cold dead hand before I would give it up.

Now I work as a chemist and that TI-89 gets me thru my job just fine. Hell I don't use most of the functions. Then again I really didn't care for calculus so I like the funcions that calculator provides.

But just my little opinion on mathematics; well calculus to be specific: I think it is really important to know and be instructed on the basic principles but for all practicality there is no reason to actually integrate huge *** peaks without a calculator.
For instance at my job all of the data that I work with come from chromatography peaks that are integrated (well not quite that easily but just to keep things simple) and the computer does that for me. It would take forever even to use a handheld calculator; and for all intents and purposes be impossible to do by hand. So, guess my point is that in the 'real world' setting, or at least in my 'real world' there is no need to do hand integration or differentiation
Hell I don't think I could differentiate anything besides an exponent.

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