Frames ?

[Edgerobber]

Why do most websites not make use of frames ?
Do they smell http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
I AM the Edgerobber -
That's nice isn't it
2nd order OC knight

[slipgun]

1) Hard to save pages
2) They take up an awful lot of space that you can make better use of with a table

Of course, sometimes frames might be a good idea...

------------------
I, Bin Laden, declare a day of mourning in the whole of the Middle East over the death of an atomic bomb buried in the seabed of the Pacific

[nkeezer]

I like them, myself, and have used them in a number of my sites. Pages load faster, frames can cut down on development time and they do allow you to create some looks that can't be done any other ways.

I think they're avoided a lot for several reasons.
1) Netscape (especially versions 3 and 4) does awful things with page margins that mucks up everything.
2) There are A LOT of bad frame sites out there. And I'll be honest, if you screw up a framed site, you can make things really bad.
3) If your site has dynamically created content, it can create some issues there too.
4) They don't work well with search engines (which is a problem for the misguided souls out there that think search engines are still important).
5) Some developers may think that frames give their site an amateurish or cheap look and feel. Most likely the result of reason #2.

JMHO.


Originally posted by Edgerobber:
Why do most websites not make use of frames ?
Do they smell http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/biggrin.gif





------------------
www.nweb-design.com (http://www.nweb-design.com) <-- Send me a client, I'll send you a 5% finder's fee

"You have just destroyed one model XQJ-37 nuclear powered pansexual roto-plooker....and you're gonna have to pay for it." -- Frank Zappa

[JohnnyJ]

Check out these frames...Updated! This page no longer uses frames, I have switched over to tables...Check it out and feel free to sign my new guestbook, any comments will be appreciated!! My website (http://www.geocities.com/jjjensenjj/index.html)

This was done for a school assignment.

[This message has been edited by JohnnyJ (edited January 16, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by JohnnyJ (edited February 07, 2001).]

[Outbreak]

In my experience it's been due to reason #4. We had do some rearranging of our metatags to get the search engines to pick our site. Though when all is said and done it worked out well. An example of a quality frames site is at http://www.datasheetlocator.com.

[This message has been edited by Outbreak (edited January 17, 2001).]

[Edgerobber]

I think frames (like everything else in life) are good in moderation.

------------------
I AM the Edgerobber -
That's nice isn't it
2nd order OC knight


[This message has been edited by Edgerobber (edited February 01, 2001).]

[yettie]

Frames are a nightmare if you want a good search engine ranking. A splash page can sometimes overcome this problem however by having a none frames page with meta tags for search engines. Having developed many sites myself I would have to say that I would avoid frames at all costs.


BTW Edgerobber, I Reckon that frames smell bad....real bad http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/smile.gif


------------------
-------
Are we real or is somebody taking the piss

[This message has been edited by yettie (edited February 01, 2001).]

[Notin]

Originally posted by yettie:
Frames are a nightmare if you want a good search engine ranking. A splash page can sometimes overcome this problem however by having a none frames page with meta tags for search engines. Having developed many sites myself I would have to say that I would avoid frames at all costs.


I always use a splash page for frames or no frames so that people can make their own decision. But frames just make updating a site so much easier, and navigation easy too... Besides... ::whispers:: tables scare me...

------------------
It's so perfect, I'm so perfect, You're so perfect, You're not here

[Pestilence]

One missed fact is that a lot of web users don't know how to add to favorites the specific frame they are looking at.

------------------
Kill em all and let God sort'em out.

WoU
Orc, 6.3k acres

[yettie]

Notin, you are correct that frames are good for the fact that you only have to change the html of your side bar once for your whole site. But once you get furthur into web development you will start using SSI (Server SIde Include's). Using PHP can let you just change a nav bar once for it to change throughout the entire site. Ever since I started using it I haven't looked back!

The key to professional web design is actually in reducing the workload. You can set it up so that changing the look of your entire site can be done in a few changes with PHP and CSS. This will give you more time for the more important things such as Beer!

[Edgerobber]

Thing is that you have to learn how to use PHP and CSS (and competently).
I haven't tried but it is another thing to learn.
You have a good point though.

------------------
Now I Know Everything
That I'll ever know
so as I know all I'll know
Then it's time to go

[yettie]

I had put off learning CSS for a long time thinking that it would be difficult but its actually very handy and in the long term will save you a huge amount of time.

PHP is a bit more difficult but with Macromedia Dreamweaver or Ultradev its actually not too difficult. I'd recommend learning it to anybody that manage's a large site that requires a lot of updating. It can really cut down on the workload.

------------------
-------
Are we real or is somebody taking the piss

[Notin]

Yes, I have been meaning to learn PHP, but my problem is that I just have so much that I want to and should learn, that my list travels all the way to Arkansas.

Hmm. another reason some people don't use frames is because they sometimes turn up funny in netscape.

------------------
Can't sleep, clowns will eat me...
Can't sleep, clowns will eat me...
Can't sleep, clowns will eat me...

[Adam Bruce]

FWIW,
Using layers, you can pretty much do anything that a frame would do only better with higher control. However, you lower your user saturation point by mandating the use of DHTML/CSS. If I want a cool layer-clip effect, I first try and see if I can't do it in frames just as well. But once you mandate a DHTML/CSS site, you might as well use layers instead.

-Adam

[Edgerobber]

Originally posted by Notin:
Yes, I have been meaning to learn PHP, but my problem is that I just have so much that I want to and should learn, that my list travels all the way to Arkansas.

Hmm. another reason some people don't use frames is because they sometimes turn up funny in netscape.



Yeah I've had that problem - I ended up making the site look slightly odd in IE, rather than looking awful in netscape.

------------------
<A HREF="http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/000155.html" TARGET=_blank>Bunnies bunnies everywhere
Hopping, jumping, without a care !</A>

[Notin]

Originally posted by Edgerobber:
Yeah I've had that problem - I ended up making the site look slightly odd in IE, rather than looking awful in netscape.



LMAO! My site is /so/ un-netscape friendly right now. it looks not bad in mozilla. But in netscape it makes me want to hurl. I have a solution that I will be trying out soon. Making less frames... hope it works http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/smile.gif btw. does anyone have netscape 6 that they could use to look at my site and tell me how bad it looks? i don't feel like d/ling it again. or would it be the same in mozilla as it is in ns6?

------------------
Can't sleep, clowns will eat me...
Can't sleep, clowns will eat me...
Can't sleep, clowns will eat me...