Would like to learn a non web based programming language..

[Wollington]

As much as I love making stuff for the web I'd like to try to make some applications.

I'd like to start with VB simply because I think it will be the easiest, but I can't afford MS's visual Studio (now they've gone and removed the student license).

So is there anything I can learn for free?
Preferably for windows but Linux would do, or even better something that would run on both. Any suggestions on languages or sites to look at comparing them?


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Microsoft has acknowledged that its engineers substituted certain file names with the phrase, "Netscape engineers are weenies," in some of its internet software.

Oh well now we all know why Nutscrape is so crap!
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< System Specs > (http://www15.brinkster.com/wollington/woll/specs.asp)

[Grizzly]

If you want to learn a valuable language, which is totally free, you could start in on Java. java.sun.com offers some amazing tutorials and documentation which can help you get your feet wet. And you can download the JDK (Java Developers Kit) for free.

[The_Hitman]

The best learning environment is by far Linux...

Comes with a free compiler for just about every language out there ... (except for VB no loss).. but great C, C++, Java, Smalltalk, Pascal, ColdFusion, PHP, SQL, environment.

Has some good editors and development environments..

You can install Linux, and either download Oracle for free or use mySQL and run it on your system, and then you have a full blown C/C++/Java environment with lots of choices of gui toolkits etc.. to do some serious programming complete with a database for backend... all for free.

Linux really is a serious programmers dream learning environment.

[This message has been edited by The_Hitman (edited February 09, 2002).]

[DeadKen]

Originally posted by Wollington:
As much as I love making stuff for the web I'd like to try to make some applications.

I'd like to start with VB simply because I think it will be the easiest, but I can't afford MS's visual Studio (now they've gone and removed the student license).

So is there anything I can learn for free?
Preferably for windows but Linux would do, or even better something that would run on both. Any suggestions on languages or sites to look at comparing them?





Ignore the Linux is everything crowd and look around at VB. There is a training version included in some books I believe.

If your doing GUI stuff, Java's Swing is a royal Pain, even with something like JBuilder.

Once C# is out for real, that is the way to go. I've been playing with Visual Studio .Net and while MFC fans won't be thrilled, VB users will feel right at home, plus they'll have the power to do real programming.



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I want an OS, not a hobby...

[Sparky_D]

Originally posted by DeadKen:

Ignore the Linux is everything crowd and look around at VB. There is a training version included in some books I believe.

If your doing GUI stuff, Java's Swing is a royal Pain, even with something like JBuilder.

Once C# is out for real, that is the way to go. I've been playing with Visual Studio .Net and while MFC fans won't be thrilled, VB users will feel right at home, plus they'll have the power to do real programming.



Do not start with VB; it's a VERY crappy "programming" language. Get Forte for Java from java.sun.com for free and learn Java. This will help you start learning Object Oriented programming; then you can migrate to C/C++/C# from there.

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[DeadKen]

Originally posted by Sparky_D:
Do not start with VB; it's a VERY crappy "programming" language. Get Forte for Java from java.sun.com for free and learn Java. This will help you start learning Object Oriented programming; then you can migrate to C/C++/C# from there.



I agree VB is not a great language, but if your simply doing small gui works, it really doesn't matter that much. C# is far cleaner then Java. Sorry, but swing is damn ugly, though I have to blame some of it on the language.

Now which would you rather program:

jDSRTabbedPane.addChangeListener(new javax.swing.event.ChangeListener() {
public void stateChanged (ChangeEvent e) {
jDSRTabbedPane_stateChanged(e);
}
});


or

this.tabControl1.SelectedIndexChanged += new System.EventHandler(this.tabControl1_SelectedIndexChanged);




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I want an OS, not a hobby...

[Sol]

You are missing the beauty of java. You can make it look like whatever you want. You can add components to it, toy with the look and feel, and all that fun stuff. You can build simple GUIs rather quickly, plus like some other people said,it's free. http://63.146.109.206/ubb/smile.gif good luck

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Icna tpye 300 wrdos per mnieut

[Hakang]

Originally posted by Wollington:
I'd like to start with VB simply because I think it will be the easiest

Check linux, gcc/g++ (c/c++ compiler) are enclosed with linux, so you have evrything you need, and you have a great moment to leran how to use linux if you dont know now http://www.sharkyforums.com/ubb/smile.gif

Else you can check java, free to download from sun so it´s easy to check...

Java might be a little bit easier to learn (have no pointers and so on) and you can easy make applets, but you cannot make executable files, you have to run it on a virtual mashine every time...

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Duron 750@900, 256Mb, 46+40Gb, Abit K7A.

[coop_2000]

You said the magic words my friend--FREE! What package of Linux would you recommend for a total Linux NewB (SUSE, RedHat, etc)? Any other resources you can think of that can be useful as well? I imagine I'd have to set up a dual boot config with my Win2K, but all in due time..

Many thanks!

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Don't eat the yellow snow.

[hu flung dung]

Originally posted by Sparky_D

Do not start with VB; it's a VERY crappy "programming" language. Get Forte for Java from java.sun.com for free and learn Java. This will help you start learning Object Oriented programming; then you can migrate to C/C++/C# from there.



Visual Basic, however, is far more powerful than Java and much easier to use than C++! Just be warned, it is very easy to develop bad habits with it!

[DeadKen]

Originally posted by hu flung dung:
Visual Basic, however, is far more powerful than Java and much easier to use than C++! Just be warned, it is very easy to develop bad habits with it!

Geeze, I hate to be in the position of defending Java, but please, how is VB more powerful then Java?

Can you imagine the pain of complicated graphs in VB? Ouch.

Personally, I am playing with (and loving C#).

When its finally out for real (next week?) it will be almost as easy to use as VB plus have all the power, or more of Java. Add the language independance (don't believe the JNI crap, its a real pain) and you have one powerful tool!

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I want an OS, not a hobby...

[Beer-n-Linux]

Where can i get a SDK for C# for free?

Is it pronounced C pound or C number sign?

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"GIVE ME BEER, OR GIVE ME DEATH!!!"

[Grizzly]

Originally posted by Beer-n-Linux:
Where can i get a SDK for C# for free?

Is it pronounced C pound or C number sign?



Actually it's pronounced C-sharp, # is called "sharp" in the music world.

I'd also be interested in some sort of free SDK so I could play around with it. I'd be MOST happy with a free command line C# compiler I can use to familiarize myself with the language.

[Beer-n-Linux]

Originally posted by Grizzly:
Actually it's pronounced C-sharp, # is called "sharp" in the music world.

I'd also be interested in some sort of free SDK so I could play around with it. I'd be MOST happy with a free command line C# compiler I can use to familiarize myself with the language.




DOH!!!!
I'm a music freak and studied classical music for years and i never thought of that:P


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"GIVE ME BEER, OR GIVE ME DEATH!!!"

[DeadKen]

Originally posted by Grizzly:
Actually it's pronounced C-sharp, # is called "sharp" in the music world.

I'd also be interested in some sort of free SDK so I could play around with it. I'd be MOST happy with a free command line C# compiler I can use to familiarize myself with the language.




The official stuff is at http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/default.asp?url=/downloads/sample.asp?url=/msdn-files/027/000/976/msdncompositedoc.xml

You might also check out www.go-mono.org (http://www.go-mono.org) for open-source stuff.




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I want an OS, not a hobby...

[grim_fandango]

Java is a powerful language, u can do almost everything with it, graphics, server programs, games, applets, etc
but i find it very slow, specially if your GUI contains lots of frames/panels
VB is a crappy language, but easy and fast for simple GUI or small programs

[Wollington]

Thanks all.
Well i've been reading all these over the last week or so and Java seems to be mentioned rather a lot.
I've dl/ed suns SDK but I've just been back to the site and they've added a new :(!!
I'm gonna have to develop on Windows for a while, my linux box has no mouse and I wanna wait for proper support for my radeon 7500 until I put it back on here.

Lastly should I download one of the IDE's and which one?
I think i'm probably gonna need it!
I've tinkled with Borland JBuilder before but only for a day or so.

Thanks

[Paladyr]

Visual Basic is BY FAR the easiest language to start programming on, end of story.

[DeadKen]

Originally posted by Paladyr
Visual Basic is BY FAR the easiest language to start programming on, end of story.

I would differ here. If you can get your hands on C#, its as easy as VB, as powerful as Java and doesn't have some the VB silliness.

[hu flung dung]

Originally posted by Paladyr:
Visual Basic is BY FAR the easiest language to start programming on, end of story.

I do prefer VB over Java, but from a learner's standpoint, Java is probably better! The first language I started learning was VB, but I picked up a lot of bad programming habits because of that (ie. I never declared my variables, I always used varients when I didn't need to, I always wrote spaghetti code, I never used modules, etc...). Java, however, forces you to write your code properly, more or less. Java doesn't allow for Varients, you always have to declare your variables, and the object-orientated concepts have made designing applications much easier! For a newbie programmer, Java's object-orientated layout and strict language stucture teaches him the true art of programming!

[DeadKen]

Originally posted by hu flung dung


I do prefer VB over Java, but from a learner's standpoint, Java is probably better! The first language I started learning was VB, but I picked up a lot of bad programming habits because of that (ie. I never declared my variables, I always used varients when I didn't need to, I always wrote spaghetti code, I never used modules, etc...). Java, however, forces you to write your code properly, more or less. Java doesn't allow for Varients, you always have to declare your variables, and the object-orientated concepts have made designing applications much easier! For a newbie programmer, Java's object-orientated layout and strict language stucture teaches him the true art of programming!

I hate to sound like a broken record, but you are correct. This is why C# is so nice. All the simplicity of VB without the evil things like variants or other undisciplined parts.

[Sparky_D]

Originally posted by Wollington
Thanks all.
Well i've been reading all these over the last week or so and Java seems to be mentioned rather a lot.
I've dl/ed suns SDK but I've just been back to the site and they've added a new :(!!
I'm gonna have to develop on Windows for a while, my linux box has no mouse and I wanna wait for proper support for my radeon 7500 until I put it back on here.

Lastly should I download one of the IDE's and which one?
I think i'm probably gonna need it!
I've tinkled with Borland JBuilder before but only for a day or so.

Thanks

DeadKen is absolutely correct; over the past week, I've been really messing around with Visual Studio .NET using C# and man! It's like having the structured correct feel of Java, but with the power of C++ and simplicity of VB for GUI's. I sure hope this takes off.

But if you want to work with Java, either download JBuilder 5 Personal Edition (which is free) or download Sun's Forte for Java (which also happens to be free for personal use :D).

[Sol]

DeadKen, you sure you aren't Bill Gates trying to push C#? ;) jk jk jk. I have talked to a couple of friends and it seems that Java is the language they are starting off with, then moving to c++. I started with Pascal in college, then c++. Anyone else experience this?

[Sparky_D]

Originally posted by Sol
DeadKen, you sure you aren't Bill Gates trying to push C#? ;) jk jk jk. I have talked to a couple of friends and it seems that Java is the language they are starting off with, then moving to c++. I started with Pascal in college, then c++. Anyone else experience this?

In my program in U. of Waterloo (Computer Science) we started with Java first year, then moved to C++, followed by assembler.

[kid A]

On my course we went from Java to more difficult Java, before we took a last course on Java... :rolleyes:

[Paladyr]

I think this guy just wants to write a simple program though... not learning correct coding standards etc... For that, visual basic would be best.

I started on C, Java, and COBOL, so when i got to visual basic it is much easier to code with, especially if you need GUI's.