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    Hammerhead Shark Geforce255's Avatar
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    Microsoft Bob, version 8

    Over the years, Microsoft has made some astounding blunders with operating systems and GUI builds. MS-DOS 4.0 was a complete disaster, Windows 1.0 was also an unmitigated disaster. Windows ME and Vista also had issues with the public.

    But perhaps the most infamous of Microsoft operating environments was MS-Bob.



    Bob was a crapaliscious dung heap foisted on the public. Bob was mostly useless. An interface that did nothing to enhance computing. Someone thought Bob was "cute" and that the computing world was just dying for cute.

    But really, Bob was garbage with not purpose to exist. So Bob faded from memory like a bad toothache.

    Jump forward in time, and Bob has risen from the dungheap of history. This time to be called "Windows 8," or more appropriately, Metro.

    Let me toss in a disclaimer; the first time I saw and used the Aero interface, I thought "this is it, this is EXACTLY what a user interface should be." Aero is the high-water mark for an interface between man an machine.

    So Microsoft has taken the brilliance that is Aero, completely discarded it, and replaced it with a blocky mess that obscures the desktop. Oh, you can forget about elegantly docked windows that let you keep a dozen programs running. The Aero peak feature the so brilliantly lets you manage running programs in the command bar is gone, because Metro makes multitasking a thing of the past. XBox doesn't multitask, so why would anyone want to? Open a program, and it will obscure all else. Oh, and good luck finding applications. Microsoft wants you to spend your time at the XBox live store, not doing mundane tasks like Excel or Email. Speaking of Email, see that ugly box that says email? Don't expect it to launch Outlook and connect to an Exchange server, nope, Microsoft doesn't appear too friendly to the idea that people would use computers for something other than the XBox live marketplace. That ugly block will launch the Windows Mail program and try to get you to use MS Cloud mail (MSN Mail by another name still smell like an outhouse.) Just because the machine has an installed copy of Outlook that is fully configured to a professional mail system doesn't seem to move Metro Bob. Ditto the ugly block that says "Calendar." Don't expect it to actually load your Outlook calendar, use a Google Android device for that, Microsoft will have nothing to do with it.

    Overall, Windows 8 brings nothing to the party. There are no significant advances in the OS to warrant an upgrade. The major change is the Metro UI, which is designed for cell phones and video game consoles, with apparently no thought of how it will affect computer users.

    The consumer preview is still beta, and maybe Microsoft will somehow create a usable system. But I don't see how, given the complete mess that is Metro. Ugly and clumsy, with the worst task handling I've seen since Mac OS 1.0

    Metro salvages Bob from the position of the worst UI in history in the same way that Obama salvages Jimmy Carter.
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    Mako Shark
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    Good question what exactly does Windows 8 offer? Microsoft still thinks it's the only OS in town when it comes to PC's. As far as I'm concerned it's a gaming OS. Everything else I do works just fine on Windows XP(in some cases better) and Linux.

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    Hammerhead Shark Geforce255's Avatar
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    Kind of sad, no one to defend Window 8...
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    LOLWUT ImaNihilist's Avatar
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    The OS itself isn't such a big deal. We no longer depend on the OS, or the OS vendor, to provide tools.

    The success or failure of Windows 8 relies in the developer tools, and if they can win back developers. Microsoft used to make a lot of the software that worked with the OS. Internet Explorer, FrontPage, Outlook, Encarta, the rest of Office, Windows Media Player, etc.. None of that matters any more. MS Office is the only one that matters at all, even then not so much. DirectX is the only piece of software which can't be decoupled from Windows these days.

    Don't know what people's problem is with Metro. It's different, but better in a world were we care more about apps than a desktop—which is the world we live in whether you like it or not. To think otherwise is just showing your age, like those who came before you complaining that the GUI itself was just for idiots who couldn't memorize a few commands.

    I will gladly use Windows 8 if developers actually make software worth using.
    Last edited by ImaNihilist; 05-07-2012 at 07:24 PM.

  5. #5
    Hammerhead Shark Geforce255's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaNihilist View Post
    The OS itself isn't such a big deal. We no longer depend on the OS, or the OS vendor, to provide tools.
    Who is "we?"

    Of course we depend on the OS to provide tools. I need LDAP and an API to get at it to identify who is accessing resources. I need active directory or an equivalent to provide a comprehensive method of regulating access to and management of resources. I need Kerberose or equivilent to offer security. I need Remote Desktop, because VNC sucks eggs. I need Citrix to offer viable access to critical data and functions to remote users, which relies on RDP.

    If someone does nothing but watch YouTube and download iTunes, then yes, the OS doesn't matter. But for those who use computers to, you know, compute, then the OS is a vital component for devising a solution.

    The success or failure of Windows 8 relies in the developer tools, and if they can win back developers. Microsoft used to make a lot of the software that worked with the OS. Internet Explorer, FrontPage, Outlook, Encarta, the rest of Office, Windows Media Player, etc.. None of that matters any more. MS Office is the only one that matters at all, even then not so much. DirectX is the only piece of software which can't be decoupled from Windows these days.
    These are irrelevant.

    The majority of computers are sold to business. Business needs to track inventory, offer customer relationship management, manage a supply chain, invoice and collect cash, track purchases, age payables, cut checks, offer payroll, produce financial statements, et al.

    The best response to the old Apple FUD campaign would have been to have the PC guy with an accountants visor on, then the Mac slacker walks in;

    Mac Hey PC, whatcha doing

    PC Oh, I'm crunching an MRP to provide a production schedule so the company can stay in business and continue to employ 30,000 people.

    Mac A what? What's MRP? I can run iLife...

    Don't know what people's problem is with Metro.
    It sucks. It retards the ability of the user to get to critical functions. Just locating programs is difficult.

    It's different, but better in a world were we care more about apps than a desktop
    Quite the opposite. In a world where a productive user has a dozen programs running with synergy between them, the UI of Aero fully supports the motif. the Metro UI hinders the ability of the user to multitask effectively.

    —which is the world we live in whether you like it or not. To think otherwise is just showing your age, like those who came before you complaining that the GUI itself was just for idiots who couldn't memorize a few commands.
    I live in a world where goods and services must be produced, packaged and sold. Where a computer is a tool to aid in the process. Metro is a poor tool that does not offer assistance in getting the job done.

    I will gladly use Windows 8 if developers actually make software worth using.
    I, on the other hand, will not. Nor will I deploy it to my user base. Nor will thousands of other IT Directors and managers across the nation.

    In my opinion, this is the most serious stumble Microsoft has made in decades, at a critical point.

    I don't think Microsoft is even a player in the mobility game. Android will dominate with IOS holding a solid and fanatical following. I have dozens of tablets deployed, none of them run Windows. IF Microsoft sacrifices the desktop in the illusion that they will capture the mobility market, then they deserve to follow Lotus and Wordperfect, once behemoths, into obscurity.
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    LOLWUT ImaNihilist's Avatar
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    How old are you? What industry do you work in? You have another thread about RDP, but who manages a server through a UI? Are you trying to manage an old NT server?

    The majority of computers are sold to business. Business needs to track inventory, offer customer relationship management, manage a supply chain, invoice and collect cash, track purchases, age payables, cut checks, offer payroll, produce financial statements, et al.
    All of this is done through the web today. No one is buying into proprietary desktop software to do this. I haven't even SEEN that kind of software in years. Are you talking about desktop executables?

    You're views on computing are very…10-15 years ago. They still apply to giant multinationals and who are stuck 10 years in the past, but even the multinationals are getting away from all that baggage.

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    Snarky Quorums MrDigital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaNihilist View Post
    All of this is done through the web today. No one is buying into proprietary desktop software to do this. I haven't even SEEN that kind of software in years. Are you talking about desktop executables?
    This whole statement is 100% wrong. You aren't even involved in IT support in any way, are you? Maybe you spend too much time in San Francisco and think everywhere is like that nonsense, but you couldn't be any more wrong.

    The vast, VAST majority of companies continue to purchase software to do business tasks. While web applications (including rental software like the latest Office and Adobe Collection) are certainly growing, desktop software has hardly been relegated to the level of obsolescence you'd like to paint it as being. I assume you make money doing web applications and thus it's in your best interest to paint your field as being much larger than it actually is.
    There is the theory of the moebius. A twist in the fabric of space where time becomes a loop.

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    LOLWUT ImaNihilist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrDigital View Post
    This whole statement is 100% wrong. You aren't even involved in IT support in any way, are you? Maybe you spend too much time in San Francisco and think everywhere is like that nonsense, but you couldn't be any more wrong.

    The vast, VAST majority of companies continue to purchase software to do business tasks. While web applications (including rental software like the latest Office and Adobe Collection) are certainly growing, desktop software has hardly been relegated to the level of obsolescence you'd like to paint it as being. I assume you make money doing web applications and thus it's in your best interest to paint your field as being much larger than it actually is.
    When I say, "Done through the web today" I don't mean literally done through the web by everyone. I mean that it can be done through the browser, and so anyone large company purchasing software today is not purchasing desktop software for Windows. Not if they have any sense.

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    I don't roll on Shabbos! Timman_24's Avatar
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    I do not know about the industrial side of things, but in the scientific community we still are closely tied with the OS be it Linux or Windows. I've only seen a few "web apps" used in our field and they were specially made to control lab equipment remotely. Wolfram Alpha is nice, but does not offer the functionality that is required for most engineers or scientists. Most modeling is still done through MatLab or Python, which are either licensed or free.

    There is only one professor in my department that uses a Mac and he constantly struggles with support. He will be switching to PC the next time he upgrades.

    As for Windows 8. I do not see the business world moving to that OS from Win 7 anytime soon. Most stayed with XP while Vista came out, I see that playing out again. The last thing a business needs with OS software is to have to reteach everyone how to use it for weeks. Win 8 offer no additional functionality for the typical desktop user.
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    Hammerhead Shark Geforce255's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaNihilist View Post
    How old are you? What industry do you work in? You have another thread about RDP, but who manages a server through a UI? Are you trying to manage an old NT server?
    LOL

    My servers are a mixture of 2003 and 2008R2.

    Yeah, pretty much everyone manages them through the UI.

    All of this is done through the web today.
    Right, because everyone has a gigabit link to their home and office, either that or they don't mind a 15 minute screen refresh...

    LOL.

    No one is buying into proprietary desktop software to do this. I haven't even SEEN that kind of software in years. Are you talking about desktop executables?
    Yep, you're right.

    SAP, Peoplesoft, Oracle, Dynamics, FAS ERP, etc are all non-existent, things of the distant past, before a Mac an iTunes was the only thing needed.

    You're views on computing are very…10-15 years ago. They still apply to giant multinationals and who are stuck 10 years in the past, but even the multinationals are getting away from all that baggage.
    Oh, is that what it is?

    Hmmm, here I thought it was because I manage an actual, working organization that has to perform and provide results...
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    LOLWUT ImaNihilist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geforce255 View Post
    Right, because everyone has a gigabit link to their home and office, either that or they don't mind a 15 minute screen refresh...
    What does gigabit broadband have to do with anything? I'm just saying that most software is moving to the browser. Even the big companies like Oracle are feeling it and moving more resources to support such things.

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    Hammerhead Shark Geforce255's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaNihilist View Post
    What does gigabit broadband have to do with anything?
    Think about it.

    When a company is talking to a customer and need information, they open up the customer file. If they are hitting the local SQL or Oracle server, this is done over a gigabit link, and response is instant.

    If this is on the cloud with a T1, were are talking 1.5mbps with several minutes to pull the record up.

    I'm just saying that most software is moving to the browser. Even the big companies like Oracle are feeling it and moving more resources to support such things.
    Software as a service has a lot of advantages for the software vendors. It truly makes software a rental, and ensures a revenue stream for groups like Oracle. But it isn't anywhere near ready for prime time, mostly due to the lack of infrastructure. Until a minimum 100mbps can be ensured across the internet, cloud computing will be the domain of iTunes and photo sharing sites.

    Even supposed SaaS packages such as Salesforce dump hundreds of gigs of data on local SQL servers to offer semi-acceptable performance.

    Cloud computing may be inevitable, but it's a decade away from being widely adopted. We need bandwidth to make it happen.
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  13. #13
    LOLWUT ImaNihilist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geforce255 View Post
    Think about it.

    When a company is talking to a customer and need information, they open up the customer file. If they are hitting the local SQL or Oracle server, this is done over a gigabit link, and response is instant.

    If this is on the cloud with a T1, were are talking 1.5mbps with several minutes to pull the record up.
    You've got customer records that are 50MB+ and you only have access to 1.5Mbps?

    I don't think software is your problem…

  14. #14
    Great White Shark vertices's Avatar
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    Being that age was brought up, I'm 36.

    Everyone manages Windows Servers through a GUI. I don't know what you're smokin Ima. Yes Powershell is awesome at managing certain things, such as mass enabling litigation hold on Exchange mailboxes or the like. But almost all Windows administrative tasks are performed through a GUI to this day.

    We nonstop sell Windows servers, windows desktops and laptops, and the MS Office Suite to SMBs. To say that all computing is done through a browser is only if you are a hipster who sits on youtube all day. I just don't see this world you speak of Ima where "Applications have largely been de-coupled from the OS". There has certainly been progress but it's nowhere near as evolved as you say it is.

    I agree with Geforce255 on this issue wholeheartedly. Are there lots of web apps now that can replace other apps sure. I don't know a single business that runs even the majority of their business off of web apps.

    Take something as simple as SMB accounting. Quickbooks is one of the most, if noo the most popular accounting package we run into for businesses under 100 users. Is there a web version? Yup. It sucks. You lose all ability to integrate with other line of business apps. It doesn't do everything the Windows install does. You have to pay per user, per company file, and some companies have many, many company files. It just doesn't work well at all. The only server that Quickbooks can even be installed on is a Windows Server.

    People that try Google Apps? They hate it, every single one of them. They want MS Office. Even MS's own Office Web Apps aren't very liked, but better than Google Apps.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImaNihilist View Post
    How old are you? What industry do you work in? You have another thread about RDP, but who manages a server through a UI? Are you trying to manage an old NT server?

    All of this is done through the web today. No one is buying into proprietary desktop software to do this. I haven't even SEEN that kind of software in years. Are you talking about desktop executables?

    You're views on computing are very…10-15 years ago. They still apply to giant multinationals and who are stuck 10 years in the past, but even the multinationals are getting away from all that baggage.
    I SEE this every day. There is so much wrong with this quote. I swear it's like you are a seer looking 15 years into the future.

    I do think we will continue to see growth in the browser. It just seems to me that Ima is 15-20 years into the future.



    And on Windows 8, well it sucks. It makes plenty of sense on a phone or a tablet, or anything with an inferior user interface such as touchscreen or 360 controller. However I don't interact with my PC in that way. I use a mouse and Keyboard. If you interact with different devices in different ways, why should the UI be the same? It makes no sense. Your UI should be designed to match the input methods, period.

    Apple has done this better. I like how they are trying to bring elements of iOS into Lion and such but they aren't just making it a single unified OS like MS is trying to do.

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    Great White Shark proxops-pete's Avatar
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    Alright... I know Windows vs Mac will never end... but please keep things civil... you know who you are...

    That said, PC games will always keep me ... well, on Windows PC. Never been fan of Mac or running Windows on Mac... and for me, specialized software for CFD (engineering) like Tecplot and FieldView exist only on 2 platforms: Linux and Windows.

    EDIT: Nm... just checked Tecplot website and they do have Mac version! o.O The other thing is that in big corporations like the one I work for, Macs are just too expensive... I have to fight for all the hardware I need... so due to cost, it will be Windows machine...

    And let me just say, I run them on Linux. Which reminds me... would someone care to explain why they can't just port Linux software to run on Mac OS X as it's based on Linux?????
    Last edited by proxops-pete; 05-09-2012 at 04:28 PM.

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