Batman AA Debacle - Good read

**mikeysg** · 11-08-2009, 10:09 AM

I do not know where to place this, but since it discusses ways in which games are rendered with regards to AA, I think it should be here. I've read it and found it to be quite an eye-opener -
http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news....aspx?pageid=0

**Nater** · 11-08-2009, 03:41 PM

The biggest problem here is that the Unreal 3 engine doesn't have anti-aliasing to begin with. I think it's a little underhanded what nVidia did, but then again they did the work. AMD has a long way to go before they have developer relations even beginning to approach the levels that nVidia has been operating at for years.

**Timman_24** · 11-08-2009, 04:18 PM

Great read. Seems like there is a multitude of people to blame and no one is innocent. I like what Nvidia does for developers and I think it is time for AMD to step up to the plate. I frown upon lock outs but at the same time AMD shouldn't have turned their back on the development team. All they had to do was send in their source code and they would have been supported no problem.

**Dark Sonic** · 11-12-2009, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timman_24

Great read. Seems like there is a multitude of people to blame and no one is innocent. I like what Nvidia does for developers and I think it is time for AMD to step up to the plate. I frown upon lock outs but at the same time AMD shouldn't have turned their back on the development team. All they had to do was send in their source code and they would have been supported no problem.

That's the issue: AMD's source code was exactly the same as NVidia's, except for the lock-out part.

**mikeysg** · 11-12-2009, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Sonic

That's the issue: AMD's source code was exactly the same as NVidia's, except for the lock-out part.

I think you're right, when ATi changed the Vender ID on the card, enabling ATi cards to do AA ingame becuz it's 'seen' as an nV card.

**taggart6** · 11-12-2009, 05:30 PM

Wow.. fascinating read.

My take aways:
AMD needs to be more aggresive with QA of their hardware and with working with devs.

Nvidia is ruthless enough will do what ever it takes to come out ahead, even if that will negatively affect other consumers.

Edios needs to better protect their IP. They should have taken charge and used their position to make both sizes play nice. In the end they're the ones that got screwed the most since it was their IP in the center of it all.

Some one at Warner Bros finally pulled their head out of their *** long enough to realize that a great comic book game can be made if you ignore Hollywood and let game devs do their job.

EPIC needs to wake up and implement some basic AA in their future engines.

**taggart6** · 11-12-2009, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Sonic

That's the issue: AMD's source code was exactly the same as NVidia's, except for the lock-out part.

From what I read, it sounded like AMD never sent their source code though. They argued that Nvidia should be the ones to fix the lock out problem since ATi hardware has run fine in the past with similar Nvidia structured code.

I'm not choosing sides here, but I think it was lazy of AMD for not sending their own code in the first place.

Like Tinman said, AMD needs to be more aggressive when working with devs. From the article, it sounds like AMD saw the graphic requirements description, and thought, "oh Nvidia will take care of that again".

**Un4given** · 11-12-2009, 06:23 PM

I have to wonder if NV has the developers on some type of leash when it comes to titles that have been labeled TWIMTBP.

**taggart6** · 11-12-2009, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Un4given

I have to wonder if NV has the developers on some type of leash when it comes to titles that have been labeled TWIMTBP.

I think the leash varies from company to company and at the end of the day Nvidia is going to try to get way with as much as they can. It's up to the devs to watch Nvidia and keep them in check.

Quote:

Originally Posted by From the article

On the subject of Vendor ID locking, their words were even less kind "Personally, I despise such things and if they would appear with such attitude of us putting a Vendor ID lock in the game, I would throw them out of the office. They can f**k off with such a low attitude... but I guess they know that so they're not even daring to ask!

"

In the case of Batman:AA, it sounds like Edios left it up to Nvidia and ATI to do whatever they wanted to do. And thats what each company did.

**Timman_24** · 11-12-2009, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Un4given

I have to wonder if NV has the developers on some type of leash when it comes to titles that have been labeled TWIMTBP.

From what I saw Nvidia gives a lot to the game devs. Did you read that bit about them suppling the devs with high end graphics cards, systems, etc and the company was only a start up. I don't really blame Nvidia as much after reading all of that. I would be a bit peeved if ATi always let Nvidia work out the details and then they reap the benefits.

Like Taggart said, moral of the story:

Nvidia is getting pissed and doesn't want their work to contribute to Ati.
Ati needs to get with the game and work with the devs.
Epic should have implemented AA in the first place.

**taggart6** · 11-13-2009, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timman_24

From what I saw Nvidia gives a lot to the game devs. Did you read that bit about them suppling the devs with high end graphics cards, systems, etc and the company was only a start up. I don't really blame Nvidia as much after reading all of that. I would be a bit peeved if ATi always let Nvidia work out the details and then they reap the benefits.

Like Taggart said, moral of the story:

Nvidia is getting pissed and doesn't want their work to contribute to Ati.
Ati needs to get with the game and work with the devs.
Epic should have implemented AA in the first place.

You forgot one:
Great super hero games can be made if Hollywood doesn't interfere.

**Timman_24** · 11-14-2009, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taggart6

You forgot one:
Great super hero games can be made if Hollywood doesn't interfere.

Hollywood is pretty pissed now. I will go out on a limb and say that these days more videogames become movies instead of movies having a videogame tie in. I'm sure it is pretty close at least.

**taggart6** · 11-18-2009, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timman_24

Hollywood is pretty pissed now. I will go out on a limb and say that these days more videogames become movies instead of movies having a videogame tie in. I'm sure it is pretty close at least.

What ever it is, it needs to happen again with other Comic book franchises.

I would love to see a swamp thing game.

11-08-2009, 10:09 AM	#1
mikeysg Fraggin' Necromorph butts Join Date: May 2003 Location: USG Ishimura Posts: 8,315	Batman AA Debacle - Good read I do not know where to place this, but since it discusses ways in which games are rendered with regards to AA, I think it should be here. I've read it and found it to be quite an eye-opener - http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news....aspx?pageid=0 __________________ Sharky Extreme 3DMark Team 3DMark03: 117658 3DMark05 : 27033 3DMark06 : 22979 3DMark Vantage : P20360 Intel C2Q X9650 @3.9ghz \| Asus P5E \| 6GB Corsair XMS2 DDR2 800 \| TRUE 120 Black \| PC+Sapp HD5870 CFX \| Team 128GB SSD (OS) \| 2x 150GB WD Raptor + 500GB WD Caviar \| X-Fi Fatal1ty FPS + Z-5500 + Razer HP1 \| Logitech G15 + G9 \| SilverStone OP1000 PSU \| Soldam XR-1 Black Knight \| Benq FP241W + 2x G2400WD \| 64bit Win7 HP Please Help Us Save Ana http://www.jpages.net/HelpAna.htm

11-08-2009, 03:41 PM	#2
Nater Hammerhead Shark Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Crawfordsville Indiana Posts: 2,668	The biggest problem here is that the Unreal 3 engine doesn't have anti-aliasing to begin with. I think it's a little underhanded what nVidia did, but then again they did the work. AMD has a long way to go before they have developer relations even beginning to approach the levels that nVidia has been operating at for years. __________________ Q6600 @ 3.6GHz (Tuniq Tower 120) - DFI Lanparty LT P35-T2R - 8GB Corsair DDR2-800 - eVGA GTX 275 SC - SoundBlaster X-Fi - Western Digital VelociRaptor 300GB - Seagate 7200.10 750GB (2) - Western Digital 1.5TB Green (2) - WINDy-Soldam MT-Pro 1700 - Antec Signature 850W- HP LP2475W (H-IPS) - Samsung 204B (TN) - Alienware Ozma 7 Headphones - Windows 7 Ultimate

11-08-2009, 04:18 PM	#3
Timman_24 The Dude Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Carbondale, IL Posts: 8,760	Great read. Seems like there is a multitude of people to blame and no one is innocent. I like what Nvidia does for developers and I think it is time for AMD to step up to the plate. I frown upon lock outs but at the same time AMD shouldn't have turned their back on the development team. All they had to do was send in their source code and they would have been supported no problem. __________________ The Rig E8500 \| Gigabyte DS4-X48\| G.Skill 4gig (2x2) Visiontek HD4870 \| Onboard Codec Sound \| Hanns-g 28" Monitor Samsung DVD-R CD-RW 52x32x52x16 \| Seagate 320gig\| No Floppy! Antec 900\| Corsair 750TX\| Tuniq Tower \| 4 120mm & 1 200mm fan Currently playing: Dragon Age, Torchlight, Forza 3 Check out my Locost build: http://locost.wordpress.com Last edited by Timman_24; 11-08-2009 at 04:19 PM.

11-12-2009, 05:30 PM	#6
taggart6 nom nom nom nom Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 12,282	Wow.. fascinating read. My take aways: AMD needs to be more aggresive with QA of their hardware and with working with devs. Nvidia is ruthless enough will do what ever it takes to come out ahead, even if that will negatively affect other consumers. Edios needs to better protect their IP. They should have taken charge and used their position to make both sizes play nice. In the end they're the ones that got screwed the most since it was their IP in the center of it all. Some one at Warner Bros finally pulled their head out of their *** long enough to realize that a great comic book game can be made if you ignore Hollywood and let game devs do their job. EPIC needs to wake up and implement some basic AA in their future engines. __________________ It's the way I tip my hat. Last edited by taggart6; 11-12-2009 at 06:08 PM.

11-12-2009, 06:23 PM	#8
Un4given Super Villain Moderator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Salt Lake City, UT United States Posts: 22,278	I have to wonder if NV has the developers on some type of leash when it comes to titles that have been labeled TWIMTBP. __________________ Prince of the OC Crusaders Intel Q6600 2.4GHz @ 3.23GHz (357MHz x 9) Zalman CNPS7000B-CU Asus P5Q-E/6GB Patriot DDR2-800 XFX Radeon HD4890 Creative Labs X-Fi XtremeGamer 500GB/200GB/80GB Seagate SATA (7200RPM) Asus 20x DVD-RW DL DVD-RW

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