C/C++ Programing

...Wanted to start this thread so I could pick the brains of you more experienced programers, especially 3D game developers. Ever since I saw Wolfenstein 3D, I've wanted to know how such software worked. Recently, I've purchased Borland C++ Builder 5 Standard and a few books on 3D graphics. My eyes have been opened; all that boredom I suffered sitting through Trigonometry class is starting to pay off...

At this point, I'm a serious C++ hobbyist trying to advance my skills enough to become a professional game developer (I know, we ALL want to write games).

Any advice (other than 'give up') would be most appreciated. At this point, I really need to know about good reference books, web sites, ect. that would be useful to someone at my level of proficiency. I am considering taking classes in Calculus to further my ability in Computer Science. As going to school is quite expensive, is this really necessary?

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From Blade Runner: Holden> The tortise lies on its back, its belly baking in the sun - thrashing its legs, trying to turn itself over but it can't; not without your help. But you're not helping. Why is that Leon?

I really believe there is a certain amount of experience needed before you can simply dive into 3d programming. I think your best idea is to take more courses. Calculus is good, and it will help with some mathematic algorithms, but more importantly, you should be taking those Computer Science courses. Take the ones with a lot of projects. Theory is nice, but you learn much more by actually writing code. All you really need is a basic CS1 and 2 course, and maybe a data structures course, and then you can start reading the books. They'll make a lot more sense to you after that. https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/5.gif

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Originally posted by Wintermute:
...Wanted to start this thread so I could pick the brains of you more experienced programers, especially 3D game developers. Ever since I saw Wolfenstein 3D, I've wanted to know how such software worked. Recently, I've purchased Borland C++ Builder 5 Standard and a few books on 3D graphics. My eyes have been opened; all that boredom I suffered sitting through Trigonometry class is starting to pay off...

At this point, I'm a serious C++ hobbyist trying to advance my skills enough to become a professional game developer (I know, we ALL want to write games).

Any advice (other than 'give up') would be most appreciated. At this point, I really need to know about good reference books, web sites, ect. that would be useful to someone at my level of proficiency. I am considering taking classes in Calculus to further my ability in Computer Science. As going to school is quite expensive, is this really necessary?

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Becoming a good programmer is not easy. You kinda jumped ahead of yourself by starting with C++ but what the hell. Every developer has told me the way you become the best is not in the classroom but to write constantly and find a "mentor". The guys at this site are the REAL deal and they can help.
http://www.cprogramming.com/cgi-bin/.../UltraBoard.pl

P.S.-If you "make it". Remember to create a character named Rick_James9 in one of your games https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/5.gif

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Tech GOD

[This message has been edited by Rick_James9 (edited October 04, 2000).]

Thank you, Arcadian and Rick_James9. I should have mentioned that I have in fact had some education in Comp Sci including C and data structures (but I was an electronics major). Additionally, I have been puttering w/C and pseudo-oop w/my Amiga for some years...the process (of finding info in Commodore manuals) has been quite educational. I agree, jumping into 3D graphics is not going to be easy, but it is something I have always wanted to do, so that is motivation enough...for now, anyway. https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/6.gif

Not to discourage you, but C++ is without a the most difficult language you can learn or program in. The reason why is because it is so powerful. It is EXTREMELY difficult to just sit down and code without knowing what kind of program you want to make. That's why school is so important, because they give you homework and tests and they point you in the right direction and teach you at the right pace. One of the best books around is the Deitel and Deitel "How to Program in C++". They give you basic excersises and explain many of the quirks and quibbles of the language. It costs around 40 bucks but I have been programming for 6 years and I still use it.
Another option you might want to try is a less difficult (and more forgiving) language. My suggestion is Visual Basic. It's the perfect beginner's language and it's really easy to teach yourself. Plus, if you worked at it, you could probably have a simple game up and running in two weeks (of leisurely programming).
My major point is , don't set your hopes too high at first. Programming takes a certain mindset and it takes a while to get accustommed to it (hell, I am STILL adjusting). Don't expect to read a book and then go, sit down, and program a quake 4. In fact, chances are that your first program is going to simply add two numbers. Slowly but surely, I'm sure you'll achieve yours (and many others) game designing dreams.

C++ isn't as hard as C is. If you develop the mindset that you are working with a barebones computer system, you will be all set. The comparison - you start with a base system, custom configure it, and set it to the job you configured it for.

If the guy wants to do 3D programming, he can. If he wants to do game programming he needs to start simple - clone a simple game like tetris (don't let Hasbro find out, though https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/5.gif). From tetris go to breakout to pac-man to 3d pac-man. Once he gets the basics down, the rest is additive.

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Originally posted by Klashe:
Not to discourage you, but C++ is without a the most difficult language you can learn or program in..

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Huh?!? Have you ever used Lisp? How about Fortran? COBOL? These languages are much harder than C or C++. Maybe what you meant to say was that C++ is difficult to MASTER. But in my opinion, it is very easy to learn.

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Originally posted by Klashe:
Another option you might want to try is a less difficult (and more forgiving) language. My suggestion is Visual Basic. It's the perfect beginner's language and it's really easy to teach yourself.

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That's like telling a perspective artist to try a Disney coloring book before that person experiments with paint https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/5.gif. VB might be an acceptible language for writing the UI for a simple Windows app, but for video games, you definately need to go with C/C++. If I were to suggest a beginner's language, I would recommend Pearl or Java. VB is too bloated, and not nearly as robust. (However, to prevent myself from looking like a hypocrite, let me point out that Pearl and Java are bloated as well, but at least they have they are more widely used in terms of the Internet, and you're more likely to get a better introduction to real programming with them https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/5.gif).

Forget C++ and try the Antechinus C# sharp...

Switching between C and C++, isnt too big of a deal.. just have to know the differences between the two. Although I havent gotten into any "heavy" C code yet, so Im sure I will see lots of change there. For beginers I would recomend perl.. easy to learn and easy to use.

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Originally posted by Ymaster:
Forget C++ and try the Antechinus C# sharp...

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I have heard of C#, but I don't know too much about it. Can you please elaborate on it. Better yet, make a new topic about it. Thanks! https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/5.gif

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Originally posted by Arcadian:
I have heard of C#, but I don't know too much about it. Can you please elaborate on it. Better yet, make a new topic about it. Thanks! https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/5.gif

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Gasp...Ok I'll do it when the time is good for me. Might be a long post..muahaha

2 years ago, i saw a "game programing gurus" book that had the complete source code for doom1 on it, and i showed you how to build a doom type engine from the ground up. Man did it confuse me with my limited c++ knowledge. Im going to wait till im out of school to do any serious programing as im a Computer engineer major. Anyway all the stuff in that book was like 4 years old too so it was kinda pointless to do it.

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Compaq Armada E500
650MHz PIII 128MB RAM
8MB ATI rage mobility
11GB hard drive/DVD

who said you cant game on a notebook????

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Originally posted by Ymaster:
Forget C++ and try the Antechinus C# sharp...

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isn't that microsofts so called answer to Java?? I learned PASCAL first and then moved on to C++ and eventually Java. At work I do a lot of Java programming, but the next project will involve some C++ open gl programming so I am hoping to get to dabble in that some.

From the looking for a job standpoint I recommend all the schooling you can get. In my experience school is an envestment. You pay a lot up front but you get a lot back when you are done. As far as references and things for 3D graphics design you should look for a copy of the OpenGL and Direct3D spects. They will tell you everything you need to know about the library calls and such to allow you to use those API's. I have done a minimal amount of 3D work myself and I found that I learned more from people that have experience then any book on the subject. I think this is one of those areas where things are changing to fast for the book publishers. Also, you might want to check out some of the tools for basic C, I know there is a lot of nice OpenGL stuff out there that isn't in C++.
Also, if you really truely wanna be a game developer don't give up. Probably the best way to do it is learn as much as you can and try creating your own product. Myst and Doom are proof that with enough work 2 guys can outsell the likes of Sierra and Interplay.

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Originally posted by Wintermute:
...Wanted to start this thread so I could pick the brains of you more experienced programers, especially 3D game developers. Ever since I saw Wolfenstein 3D, I've wanted to know how such software worked. Recently, I've purchased Borland C++ Builder 5 Standard and a few books on 3D graphics. My eyes have been opened; all that boredom I suffered sitting through Trigonometry class is starting to pay off...

At this point, I'm a serious C++ hobbyist trying to advance my skills enough to become a professional game developer (I know, we ALL want to write games).

Any advice (other than 'give up') would be most appreciated. At this point, I really need to know about good reference books, web sites, ect. that would be useful to someone at my level of proficiency. I am considering taking classes in Calculus to further my ability in Computer Science. As going to school is quite expensive, is this really necessary?

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Arcadian,
Yes, well, it's might be true that LISP , CObol and FOrtran are harder than C or C++ (i don't really know them too well) but how often are those ancient languages used to program games? In fact, how often are they use AT ALL outside of the science/business world? I can't think of any instances.
All I was saying was that out of all of the Languages I know, C/C++ are the hardest. I can't STAND sitting there staring at a screen full of errors because of some piddly little thing where I forgot to take the address of a pointer's address in the .h file. Just thinking about it pisses me off... https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/5.gif C/C++ is a very low level language (as opposed to Java or BASIC) which addes functionality but unfourtunatly increases difficulty.
Yes, Visual Basic is a little simple. Very simple. ****, its called BASIC! But if you had no experience with any type of programming then it's a good stepping stone. All artists started with a "Disney coloring book" and all good programmers started with a simple language. For me, it was BASIC on an APPLE IIe. But I posted that message before Wintermute said that he had had previous programming experience. Knowing that, I would have never told him to go down to VB.

[This message has been edited by Klashe (edited October 05, 2000).]

Hey, I'm also getting into C++. Bought that nift C++ in 21 days - yeah right.. Like no eating, sleeping or bathroom trips..

Anyway it seems ok - all the examples can be done the the MS introductory complier in a psuedo 'text' mode so you don't have to worry about windows function calls. I started to learn C but then figured what the hell - might as well go to C++. I have heard that learning C first may not be a good way to go.

Anyway, I wish you luck - my time to learn is spaced so far out by the time I get the read another section, I have to review the previous ones again http://dev.www.sharkyforums.forums.relay.cool/

$ .02

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C and C++ can be a little difficult to grasp and don't always give the best error messages but they are great programing languages. C was created by Bell Labs for the development of UNIX and the ability of the language is endless. C++ is basically a macro langauge built off of C that adds in object orientation and gets ride of some of the notorious fun things people would do to make C code basically impossible to read or trace. C++ is not a low level langauge, it is a high level langauge just like Java. The major difference is C++, like C, does not believe in hand holding. You have all the power to do anything, including screw up. I think far to many people confuse C and C++ for being the same thing. On a side note, one of my professors claims that C is the fastest non-assembly langauge in exsistance (ie the finished product runs faster then the finished product from any other langauge)....I wonder if that is true or not.

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Originally posted by Klashe:
Arcadian,
Yes, well, it's might be true that LISP , CObol and FOrtran are harder than C or C++ (i don't really know them too well) but how often are those ancient languages used to program games? In fact, how often are they use AT ALL outside of the science/business world? I can't think of any instances.
All I was saying was that out of all of the Languages I know, C/C++ are the hardest. I can't STAND sitting there staring at a screen full of errors because of some piddly little thing where I forgot to take the address of a pointer's address in the .h file. Just thinking about it pisses me off... https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/5.gif C/C++ is a very low level language (as opposed to Java or BASIC) which addes functionality but unfourtunatly increases difficulty.
Yes, Visual Basic is a little simple. Very simple. ****, its called BASIC! But if you had no experience with any type of programming then it's a good stepping stone. All artists started with a "Disney coloring book" and all good programmers started with a simple language. For me, it was BASIC on an APPLE IIe. But I posted that message before Wintermute said that he had had previous programming experience. Knowing that, I would have never told him to go down to VB.

[This message has been edited by Klashe (edited October 05, 2000).]

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[This message has been edited by jtshaw (edited October 05, 2000).]

jtshaw,

Well, I could be wrong, but I always thought that a low level language (Assembly, for example)was one that you have to do more memory manipulations. I never had to do that in any other language other than C/C++ so I assumed that it was a low(er) level language. But, I just asked my co-worker, and he says C is a low level language and C++ is a high level, so I don't know.

I would have to agree with your professor too. The reason why C can run so fast is because it is close enough to Assembly. YOu are telling the computer how to handle the memory and how to allocate it, instead of relying on pre made funciton/libraries to automatically do it for you. The more user friendly a language is (Java, VB) the more translation is needed from the compiler, which equal longer compile/load times.

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Originally posted by Klashe:
jtshaw,

Well, I could be wrong, but I always thought that a low level language (Assembly, for example)was one that you have to do more memory manipulations. I never had to do that in any other language other than C/C++ so I assumed that it was a low(er) level language. But, I just asked my co-worker, and he says C is a low level language and C++ is a high level, so I don't know.

I would have to agree with your professor too. The reason why C can run so fast is because it is close enough to Assembly. YOu are telling the computer how to handle the memory and how to allocate it, instead of relying on pre made funciton/libraries to automatically do it for you. The more user friendly a language is (Java, VB) the more translation is needed from the compiler, which equal longer compile/load times.

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Well, there is no language available that gives you as much power over the hardware than assembly. This is true by definition. However, assembly is hard to use, and it's very difficult to read someone else's code. Because of this, C is much more widely used.

C is only as efficient as the compiler, but fortunately modern compilers are a lot more intelligent, and are thus able to tailer the code more specifically for a given set of microprocessors. It's not easy to justify the use of assembly any more, which is why it's rarely used.

C++ is a superset of C, and because of the level of abstraction that can be found in C++ classes, it tends to be a little more bloated than plain ANSI C. But, like I said: C/C++ is only as good as the compiler, and fortunately C++ compilers are fairly efficient these days as well.

Thanks to all for the tremendous support on this thread! https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/5.gif At this point, I feel I should continue to clarify my position in relation to this topic...

1. I'm quite familiar w/C language and have been puttering w/it for about 10 yrs. Nothing too serious - Fractal toys and a complete w/menus, buttons, ect. port of the old UNIX mainframe game Conquest to the Amiga (OS v3.x).
2. While new to C++, I am familiar w/oop (events, msgs, ect.) from my experience w/the Amiga...wish the Amiga would have caught on instead of the IBM PC... https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/6.gif
3. I hate Microslop (because I believe in competition) and will not buy any Messysoft products if I don't absolutely have to - being an avid gamer, I MUST buy the OS.
4. I stopped writing BASIC programs about 15 years ago when I learned Pascal (I kind of got burned by AmigaBASIC)...don't get me wrong, I know VB is a powerful tool and is quite useful for those who wish to create (slower, larger) apps without having to learn a lot of comp. sci. to do it.
5. Being proficient w/algebra and trig, (damned identities!), I don't think I will have too much trouble w/the 3D graphics algorithms...I have heard that AI can be/is calculus intensive although I don't know why it would be...

I'll start w/something easy...I was thinking of doing something like the MS "maze" screen saver...scripted movement, basic textures, simple lighting...seems simple enough...(gulp)...

I've seen C# mentioned but don't know anything about it yet.

Again, thank you...

cheers,

-James

I too wish the Amiga would have caught one better - it was such an advanced machine compared to the crappy x86 series..

$ .02

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Originally posted by Whirlwind:
C++ isn't as hard as C is.

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I find it neither harder nor easier, just different.

Either way, it maintains the feel of a "do it yourself" language. You have a huge investment in getting started, but once you have a nice set of classes, rapid development is a reality.

If your going to do some 3d programming, then I think C++ is the language you will want to use. I don't believe you'll need any calculus. If you use, say OpenGL you should become very familiar with the various library's and functions of the API. If you do some more hardcore 3d programming, learn lists and pointers.

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Originally posted by johnsonfromwisconsin:
If your going to do some 3d programming, then I think C++ is the language you will want to use. I don't believe you'll need any calculus. If you use, say OpenGL you should become very familiar with the various library's and functions of the API. If you do some more hardcore 3d programming, learn lists and pointers.

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You can just as easily do 3d programming in C. In fact, if you look at Microsoft's direct3D samples, you will notice a lot of them are in C as opposed to C++. Some people feel comfortable making their own classes, but I also find it easy to create data structures out of C... it allows for some more optimizations. But, since C++ is a superset of C, you can always produce your code in C and C++.

Agreed Arcadian, C is just as good. I usually fall in the habit of refering to both of them by the name of one. I should have been more specific. https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/5.gif