Printable View
With the recent succes of Doublefine Adventures and Wasteland 2, I figured it would be nice to have a dedicated thread for posting awesome game finds on kickstarter. Even if you choose not to donate, its atleast a neat way to see what indie things are out there.
Saw this game which looks pretty novel. A game for smart phone where you actually use real-world jogging to progress through a zombie apocalypse based game.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...r?ref=category
The models look like that space fighter board game I linked in the other thread. I thought I'd post this here since Taggart was so nice to create a new thread just for these cool gaming projects :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamakazie
Two board game projects I'll probably end up backing:
Zpocalypse...zombie horde game
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...-game?ref=live
Gunship: First Strike!...multiplayer space combat game
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...p-first-strike
Zpocalypse sounds pretty neat. I'm thinking baout going in for the $75 copy. I figure it will be that much at launch for the core game consider it comes with actual miniatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Astros Fan
I went with a few of them. Thanks to Kama (I think it was?) for finding FTL.
Bacillus: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...llus?ref=users
Loc: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...cape?ref=users
Idle Thumbs Podcast: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...cast?ref=users
FTL: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...ight?ref=users
Wasteland: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...nd-2?ref=users
There is a good read about kickstarter if I can dig it up. In essence it pointed out to be wary since essentially they aren't required to ever deliver the product, and to get your money back can be a real chore.
It is just the usual buyer beware...lessons for kickstarter creators
Kickstarter will die because most people don't understand what Kickstarter is. People get pissed when the creator doesn't deliver, but fail to realize exactly what you pointed out—you aren't buying anything when you fund a Kickstart project. You are basically an investor with no upside other than some swag or a free product, should it ever be produced.Quote:
Originally Posted by innocentbastard
Which is why I am not giving freely. I gave some money to Double Fine because I love what they do and what they stand for. I also believe they will totally deliver. However, throwing money into random indie stuff is disappointment waiting to happen. I think it is crazy that people give 1000's of dollars!Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaNihilist
I think a few months from now we will start seeing some of these projects die without any refund, then people will be a bit more cautious.
It's already happening and the "funders" are getting super pissed off and harassing the people who created the projects, demanding refunds.
Kickstarter is going to die a horrible PR death.
I meant games specifically. It seems kickstarter has been hailed as the saivor of indie games (like they needed a savior) by the gaming media. However, in a few months the gaming media will have to report the numerous failed projects.Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaNihilist
Adventure, Wasteland2, and Code Hero. Those are the ones I care about.
Yeah. At least Double Fine is filming it. Even if it bombs you'll get some lulz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Timman_24
With regards to games, I few kickstarter not so much different then a pre-order.
That's not a good way to look at it. A preorder can always be refunded in the gaming industry. Most preorders are given through the publisher or a 3rd party store to secure your order on launch day, not to fund the project.Quote:
Originally Posted by taggart6
They should be viewed separately, otherwise you could be put into bad situations.
Preorder: Upfront payment to secure a launch day copy.
Kickstarter: Investment in a project that may or may not result in a finished product months or years down the road.
With a preorder there is no question about obtaining a copy or getting a refund. A Kickstarter is an investment (not a promise or guarantee) that may or may not come to fruition.
My son and I just backed the Zpocalypse game at the $75 level....tons of stuff at that level. I'm pretty confident that this project will make it, great prototypes, has won some awards, and the devs haven't quit their day jobs yet LOL
A preorder doesn't say you will get a game or that the game will be good. It merely reserves a copy of a game you hope will be good and at the least expect completed. If i pre-order a game for a dev that goes under I figure I'll have just as much a problem getting my money back as kickstarter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Timman_24
that said, I have no doubt that kickstarter games will be produced. the only issue will be how crappy the game is. But hey, that's part of thr risk.
If you preorder a game and the publisher goes under, then it doesn't matter since the preorder is not through the publisher (except on Origin or something.) I've never heard of someone not getting their game or a preorder refund when a preorder goes awry. Ima has said there have been numerous failed projects on kickstarter though, so it does happen. I can't say anything to your trust in the kickstarter program, that is something each person will need to decide for themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by taggart6
A preorder is an agreement to secure delivery, if it isn't fulfilled the company is required to refund the money. Kickstarter is an investment with no guarantee of product delivery. I think that is an important distinction.
FWIW, here are some excerpts from the TOS:
Quote:
Company shall not be liable for any failure to perform its obligations hereunder where such failure results from any cause beyond Company’s reasonable control
I'm not saying anyone will get screwed, just to be informed about what could possibly happen in the future.Quote:
Company may terminate your access to all or any part of the Service at any time, with or without cause, with or without notice, effective immediately, which may result in the forfeiture and destruction of all information associated with your membership. If you wish to terminate your account, you may do so by following the instructions on the Site. Any fees paid hereunder are non-refundable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timman_24
I don't see kick-starter game devs not releasing something should they encounter problems. My expectation is that at the very least they would just send out the alpha or beta version and call it the final to shut people up.
The industry does it so why can't indie devs as well? Nothing in the terms of service says the game has to be any good.
Saw this which looks interesting. I'm not a huge fan of this kinda of strategy combat but I figure others might be:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012...s-kickstarter/
That looks absolutely amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by taggart6
What has happened a few times already—although not for a game—is that someone raises money and blows through it before the product reaches production, and then either asks for more money or goes silent. Kickstarter takes 5%. Amazon takes another 3-5% for credit card processing.Quote:
Originally Posted by taggart6
The only reason Kickstarter exists is because current SEC rules prohibit you from crowdsourcing investment capital. Only people with over $1MM in liquidity are technically allowed to invest in a company, and a company can not have more than 500 shareholders and remain private. It's also technically illegal to discuss "raising money" if you are a private company.
Kickstarter is just a legal loophole. It allows you to raise money as if it were some kind of single-source donation. If you are posting a project you are not obligated to deliver anything at all. Backing a project is the same as being an investor with 100% downside potential and little, if any, upside. It's basically like hitting the PayPal "Donate" button.
If the JOBS Act passes as is, Kickstarter will probably disappear or change quite drastically. The JOBS Act will change a lot of the SEC funding rules for small companies. The JOBS Act could actually completely change small business in America. It's a shame it doesn't get much attention. The bill is kind of broken, but there's some good stuff in there about funding for small companies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaNihilist
Going from an idea to an actual physical good is crazy expensive now a days. An hour on a C&C machine is easily a few grand if you consider time to develop the 3d model, time to rent the machine, and materials.
I feel less concerned with something like an indie video game or a board game that is all ready in the printed demo play testing phase. Honestly, a 100 hours of programming is really about 50 which is the price of a few liters of mountain dew and a few weeks worth of Taco Bell burritos. Indie devs basically run on big dreams and fast food.
Printing costs for board games can get costly but if they are in the play testing with a printed design concept then I feel more at ease that they can meet demand. Bulk printing is done in orders so you typically know what your printing run will cost pretty early on.
Software can cost thousands. Visual Studio (used for XNA games) MSDN subscription can be $3000+ with a $1500+ annual renewal. Adobe CS5 will cost $1,899. The music will need to be composed or licensed. I doubt you will find many composers that will work for minimum wage, plus the software expense that goes with that. Most people mess around with cracked versions, but they will need to go legit when making a real product.Quote:
Originally Posted by taggart6
Then there is housing/insurance/food etc that are simply the basics for living. Most indie games are 2-10 people. Unless they are all living together, that can add up quickly. They may use the money to purchase newer hardware as well, that can be several thousand.
The costs are much more than a bag of fast food.
Most of the costs associated with games that have no physics aren't programming. Most of the budget goes to asset creation.
Going over budget is really easy. You can't wait around for the VO work, so the guys start drawing. The VO comes in and it's a TOTAL mismatch with the art. Now you've got to do the VO all over again.
Good art directors help, but these kind of things are inevitable. If you are crowdfunding it because you couldn't get funded any other way—because you didn't have the experience necessary for someone to take a chance on you—chances are you are going to mess up a lot.
I'm not talking about Double Fine. They know their stuff. I'm talking about most of the others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timman_24
Depends on the development studio but I agree its not always cheap. However not all indie devs use XNA and I would imagine it ultimately depends on your resources at hand. If they currently go to a programing school (min had game dev courses) or work for a larger dev group chances are they already access to a development suite. However whether they can use them for personal development is a very grey area or simply a no-no.
Housing costs are needed for any one that wants a home and not unique to programers. I would assume that as with most start-ups, some of the group is a mix of side jobs and steady employment to help fund efforts.
I no way am I saying its cheap. My comment about tacos was in jest. I figure most would have gotten that.
FTL is a 2 man operation. From their video, they want to use part of their funds to pay off there artist who has worked for free. I've heard similar things from other really small dev teams. People will work for free or very low pay in returns for potential profits/shares and experience. I figure it was similar to most startups.Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaNihilist
A cousin of mine is graphics artist. She does work for a variety of ad based things at a low price until she gets established and command a higher price. Company logos, marketing material and etc. She workd for a firm in Austin but she's stil green and doing things on the side to build experience. Same goes for a old college friend of mine that now works for a special effect group for The Asylum film studio. She still does low cost commission work on the side to help build her reputation. She's been at it maybe 4 years or so and it just happy to have a steady paycheck.