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07-17-2007, 12:20 PM
vairox

I bash Manning because he was coddled like a newborn up until after he signed with NY, hell he probably still is....

complete slap in the face to the entire league to come out of college and decide which team you are gonna play for, heads up... the draft runs the other way around.

it's a great honor to even be CONSIDERED good enough to play at the ultimate level, but no....you toss that thought in the trash and you start calling the shots, of course you are gonna look like a crybaby horse's ***... Ecry will always be the Manning who never could, not that madden predicts the future but in year 3 of my pranchise the giants had Eli as a backup, they signed Grossman...that's sad.
07-17-2007, 01:36 PM
WolfNoob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard

Can't wait to find out. But my money is on his lack of mobility is going to impact his game greatly.

Well, he did once throw 4 TDs playing on a broken ankle. McNabb will be fine. I say that if he can stay healthy, he will be in the pro-bowl, and really only Brees is a threat to have a better season at QB in the NFC.
07-17-2007, 02:03 PM
Spank_Me_Hard

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfNoob

Well, he did once throw 4 TDs playing on a broken ankle. McNabb will be fine. I say that if he can stay healthy, he will be in the pro-bowl, and really only Brees is a threat to have a better season at QB in the NFC.

You are a fool to disregard Jason Campbell...

:D

LOL!

Kidding...
07-17-2007, 06:48 PM
md1198p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard

BARELY over 1,000. Another example like McGahee... a very good year for someone recovering from knee reconstruction. Again... probably near the top of the list.

And looking at his career stats... not quite as dominant as he had been in the past.

If he was the featured back (i.e. didn't have to split playing time with Reggie Bush), I think that he'd have even a better year this year.

Again... a good year... but not nearly as dominant as he had been in the past. And again... just over 1,000 yards.

Dude... you're talking about the greatest reciever ever here.

And pervious to the injury... look at his stats:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/126/career

His fewest receptions since 1991. His fewest yards since 1987.

A good year for the best reciever ever in the game coming back... but still not up to the level that he was playing at right before the injury.

Now Edge is more typical of what you see after an injury like this. His numbers are WAY down:

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133320

His yard per carry are down 0.8 yards per rush... and he ran for less than 1,000 his first year back from injury.

And no... I don't think that it was because of his line. The subsequent years, he gets back to more normal "Edge" numbers.

Thank you for highlighting my point.

For every Jerry Rice, Deuce McAllister, or McGahee, you have 10 guys who suffer like Edge did.

I think that McNabb will be back being a mad scrambler... it just won't be this year.

When they fixed it... did they manage to "patch it up" somehow (I'm not familiar with this procedure as I fully tore mine), or did they fully tear it and then reconstruct it (in my case, they used a piece of my hamstring as replacement tissue... in other cases they use the ligament from a cadaveur)?

Or did they simply leave it as partially tore, and just hope for the best?

Each way has it's own benefits and drawbacks.

Can't wait to find out. But my money is on his lack of mobility is going to impact his game greatly.

Lol...all those guys had good seasons. If you don't Edge had a harder time picking up yards behind Arizonas line than he did the Colts line because it maybe supports your argument...ok fine. there are a ton more players that had this injury, either in the pros or college.
His was partially torn, just the ACL. Its was not as severe as Culpeppers, who tore all 3 ligaments. It was not even as bad as Palmers. I would have to look up exactly how it was repaired. Point is...this injury is just so common now that its more unusual for a player to not come back from it.

You really seem to be fixed on Mcnabb using mobility. I have watched every single game he has played in his career, since around 2004 he just does not run very much and really is a pocket passer. He can and does make some plays with his legs, but his game is to stay in the pocket and go though progressions. You are thinking of a game like Vicks, but it is much closer to a Steve Young, run if you have to.
You blow off the fact that he threw 4 INTs with zero mobility because it was against a team that was not that good?
07-17-2007, 06:51 PM
md1198p

Quote:

Now Edge is more typical of what you see after an injury like this. His numbers are WAY down:

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133320

His yard per carry are down 0.8 yards per rush... and he ran for less than 1,000 his first year back from injury.

And no... I don't think that it was because of his line. The subsequent years, he gets back to more normal "Edge" numbers.

Thank you for highlighting my point.

For every Jerry Rice, Deuce McAllister, or McGahee, you have 10 guys who suffer like Edge did.

I think that McNabb will be back being a mad scrambler... it just won't be this year.

Actually your own link shows he ran for over 1,000 yards..nice try though.
07-17-2007, 06:52 PM
md1198p

Quote:

Again... a good year... but not nearly as dominant as he had been in the past. And again... just over 1,000 yards.

15th in the league....not elite but still an excellent season.
07-17-2007, 06:54 PM
md1198p

Quote:

Not at all.

I actually get to see quite a bit of Philly games... mostly because of the fact that they are one of the better teams right now that seem to get more TV coverage that others.

And McNabb strikes me about as far away from a "pocket passer" as I can think of. Even with a very good line protecting him.

Take away his mobility, and he will suffer. I think that we can both agree with that. The difference in opinion between you and me seems to be how much he will suffer from greatly reduced mobility. I think greatly.

NO lol...we cannot agree. why even type that, we have been arguing this fact for 2 pages here. I, (a) KNOW he does not rely on scrambling as much as you think he does, and (b) don't think he is gonna be this immobile sitting duck like you think.

You need to watch a few more games. I really think you must remember 1-2 plays a game and base your whole opinion of his game on that.
07-17-2007, 06:57 PM
md1198p

Quote:

Against Arizona? Do we really need to say any more than that?

I could have sat in the pocket against Arizona's rush and picked apart their defence.

No you couldn't. It was a good display of how effective he could be just sitting in the pocket. He ran a lot more early in his career because of how long the offense takes to learn, Philly has one of the more complicated versions of the WCO. He also used to take a lot longer to read his progressions, he goes through them pretty quick now.
07-17-2007, 07:45 PM
md1198p

Quote:

Originally Posted by vairox

I bash Manning because he was coddled like a newborn up until after he signed with NY, hell he probably still is....

complete slap in the face to the entire league to come out of college and decide which team you are gonna play for, heads up... the draft runs the other way around.

it's a great honor to even be CONSIDERED good enough to play at the ultimate level, but no....you toss that thought in the trash and you start calling the shots, of course you are gonna look like a crybaby horse's ***... Ecry will always be the Manning who never could, not that madden predicts the future but in year 3 of my pranchise the giants had Eli as a backup, they signed Grossman...that's sad.

I agree with this 100%. Also, if the Giants did not trade so much to get him, and the huge deal had been made at the draft by him and his daddy that brought him there, I bet the Giants would have drafted a QB this year, probably Quinn. Its not just a matter of numbers, his being average at best. He does not look to be improving and a lot of the time just looks lost. A little pass rush and he panics, has no poise and just lobs up a pass. That one little point he raised his QB rating there you keep talking about (to a whopping 77:eek: )he owes to Burress for out jumping people and catching horrible passes into coverage.
His brother struggled his first few years but he did not have that same lost look that Eli has.
07-17-2007, 07:58 PM
vairox

Michael Vick Indicted....

as the worm turns....hope you didn't draft this dude in your FF
07-17-2007, 08:04 PM
Boneycat

Quote:

Originally Posted by md1198p

I agree with this 100%. Also, if the Giants did not trade so much to get him, and the huge deal had been made at the draft by him and his daddy that brought him there, I bet the Giants would have drafted a QB this year, probably Quinn. Its not just a matter of numbers, his being average at best. He does not look to be improving and a lot of the time just looks lost. A little pass rush and he panics, has no poise and just lobs up a pass. That one little point he raised his QB rating there you keep talking about (to a whopping 77:eek: )he owes to Burress for out jumping people and catching horrible passes into coverage.
His brother struggled his first few years but he did not have that same lost look that Eli has.

Well the chargers definitely got the best of that deal.
07-17-2007, 08:06 PM
md1198p

Quote:

Originally Posted by vairox

Michael Vick Indicted....

as the worm turns....hope you didn't draft this dude in your FF

GOOD. This guy has been a scum bag ever since he has been in the league. As hard as the NFL has tried to make him there cover boy, he is just an a-hole. This might be good for Atlanta, may be able to get out of that contract and get a real QB. Lol...I bet they really wish they kept Shaub(sp?) now, huh?
07-17-2007, 08:13 PM
WolfNoob

Quote:

Originally Posted by vairox

Michael Vick Indicted....

as the worm turns....hope you didn't draft this dude in your FF

He was my FF team MVP last year. My league scored 1 point per rushing attempt, so 8 carries for 70 yards from Vick was equal to 350 yards passing and 2 TDs from a real QB.
07-17-2007, 08:15 PM
md1198p

Oh yeah..Frank Gore tore BOTH his ACL's in college...after surgery in 2003, he ran for just under 1000 yards with a 4.8 average in 2004.
07-17-2007, 08:15 PM
md1198p

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfNoob

He was my FF team MVP last year. My league scored 1 point per rushing attempt, so 8 carries for 70 yards from Vick was equal to 350 yards passing and 2 TDs from a real QB.

Thats kinda a silly league.
07-17-2007, 08:58 PM
vairox

md1198p - guess culpepper knows where he is landing now that he was cut loose.

and yeah, that's a very silly league... any time a jester like vick can put up as many fantasy points playing RB as a QB can during a GOOD game is a silly league....and by silly, I mean castro district of san fran silly.
07-17-2007, 09:31 PM
md1198p

Quote:

Originally Posted by vairox

md1198p - guess culpepper knows where he is landing now that he was cut loose.

and yeah, that's a very silly league... any time a jester like vick can put up as many fantasy points playing RB as a QB can during a GOOD game is a silly league....and by silly, I mean castro district of san fran silly.

Possible...the system they are supposed to run, from what i understand, needs a QB that can throw the deep ball well. He was just cut also from Miami.
07-18-2007, 01:40 AM
PriMaTe

I've lost faith in eli, but his comp % has improved each season. If he can keep his head straight, get his comp % above 60 and avoid the mid season decline that would be great.

I don't remember who it is, but whoever thinks mcnabb is a running qb has not seen him play. He's a pocket passer who happens to be able to run and move around. If the pocket collapses he can scramble, he doesn't immediately go into run mode he still looks for the pass. He's smart about it.

Don't confuse a qb who can run with a running qb.
07-18-2007, 02:25 AM
md1198p

Quote:

Originally Posted by PriMaTe

I've lost faith in eli, but his comp % has improved each season. If he can keep his head straight, get his comp % above 60 and avoid the mid season decline that would be great.

I don't remember who it is, but whoever thinks mcnabb is a running qb has not seen him play. He's a pocket passer who happens to be able to run and move around. If the pocket collapses he can scramble, he doesn't immediately go into run mode he still looks for the pass. He's smart about it.

Don't confuse a qb who can run with a running qb.

THANK YOU!!! A confirmation at last!!!!
I will agree he has slightly improved...but even you, a Giants fan I assume, seem to agree he has not met expectations, and that his future expectations are much lower now than when he was drafted. When you trade on draft day for a number one picked QB, and trade 2 high first round picks, you expect to get a great player. It does not seem he will live up to that status.
07-18-2007, 09:20 AM
spamjedi

Quote:

Originally Posted by r'aggro

I noticed earlier today that Peter King of all people has the Lions in the middle of the pack as far as preseason rankings go.

Number 13!

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...16/mmqb/1.html

Ha. If we, by some miracle, have a good season this year I don't even know if I'll be able to handle it. :Glee:
07-18-2007, 12:07 PM
Mindwarper

Anyone think Culpeper will get a starting job? I don't, but who knows. Miami got screwed. They lost draft picks and got nothing in return.
07-18-2007, 01:02 PM
Spank_Me_Hard

Quote:

Lol...all those guys had good seasons.

Maybe perspective... maybe you think that 1,000 or 1,100 yards is a "good" season. For a feature back (which in fact I have to give McAllister even more props for last season), I think that it is just "decent" by regular standards, and "good" coming back from knee reconstruction.

1,000 or even 1,100 yards to me isn't overly impressive. Over a 16 game season, 1,000 yards is like 66 yards per game and 1,100 is a little bit more. Hardly eye popping when you consider how much it contributes to a teams offense in one game. Not "bad" in my eyes, but not "good" either. "Decent".

Maybe your perspective differs from mine, but that's how I see it.

And keep in mind that even at 1,000 to 1,100... the examples that you cite are the EXTREME end of the spectrum... and I would argue are the exceptional cases... not the general end result.

Quote:

If you don't Edge had a harder time picking up yards behind Arizonas line than he did the Colts line because it maybe supports your argument...ok fine.

Edge was a few years removed from his injury by the time that he hit Arizona. And yes... Arizona's o-line definitely contributed to his drop in production.

Quote:

there are a ton more players that had this injury, either in the pros or college.

I suspect that if someone (a statistician with a REAL enjoyment of numbers) really crunched the numbers... that we'd see a OVERALL significant drop off in production the immediate year after knee reconstruction.

And for every Deuce McAllister, I can probably find an Ickey Woods. Or ten players who had a significant drop off the immediate year after.

Quote:

His was partially torn, just the ACL. Its was not as severe as Culpeppers, who tore all 3 ligaments.

Yea... those are two opposite ends of the "knee injury" spectrum.

Quote:

Point is...this injury is just so common now that its more unusual for a player to not come back from it.

Ohh, I agree 100%. Most players come back from it... my point is that they are rarely the same player they were before the injury in just their FIRST year back.

Quote:

You really seem to be fixed on Mcnabb using mobility. I have watched every single game he has played in his career, since around 2004 he just does not run very much and really is a pocket passer. He can and does make some plays with his legs, but his game is to stay in the pocket and go though progressions.

I have had PLENTY of opportunity to see McNabb play. Aside from watching every Washington game that I can, I'll usually watch the other NFC East games just because I think that the rivalries in that division are the best in football. Even though I don't like Philly, or the Giants, and am rather neutral on Dallas... those are some GREAT games to watch. I have seen PLENTY of Philly games.

And I am fixated on McNabb's legs... for what I think is good reason... from what I've seen I think that he uses them a LOT.

In light of our discussion here, I will actually pay special attention to this this season (and I am contemplating buying NFL ticket for DISH). The Philly games that I am able to watch, I'll break it down. My guess from that games that I have watched in the past is that McNabb scrambles out of the pocket probably about 1/3rd of the pass plays. That is a LOT.

And if I am right... what is even more telling about that is that Philly has a good O-line... he gets a lot of time staying in the pocket anyways. He probablt gets more time... either staying in the pocket or scrambling... than any other QB in the game. This is a TREMENDOUS advantage for him to find open recievers.

Back when the Eagles starting receivers were Thrash and Pinkston, it was extremely frustrating watching McNabb being able to march the team down the field with basically little help from the running game. The receivers would have single coverage on them and would be blanketed from the get go. Eventually... McNabb would either:

a) run for good yards
b) dump it off to a RB or his TE who had all day to find a soft spot
c) eventually throw it to the WRs who had all day to eventually shake their coverage

or

d) scramble... draw the defence up to him and then do b) or c)

I mean it was ridiculous. I can't describe to you my frustration with the opponent teams pass rush not being able to apply ANY pressure to McNabb.

The flipside to that would be the Eagles D would be ALL OVER the other teams QB. Whether it was Trotter correctly guessing the snap count and blowing up the Center the moment he hiked the ball and creaing all kinds of disruption or Walker taking an O-lineman and tossing him aside right off the snap.

I remember wondering how McNabb would do under that exact same situation.

(by the way... I think that Jimmie Johnson is a MASTER Defensive Coordinator... would LOVE to have him on my team)

And all those years that the Eagles lost in the NFC Championship game... the team that beat the Eagles were able to rush McNabb, force him to stay in the pocket, read the defence and utterly confuse him.

Quote:

You are thinking of a game like Vicks

Vick is a different cat. He will *try* to read a defence for 1/2 second and either un at the first inkling of trouble or give up trying to read the D and run anyways.

He is the EXTREME case of a running QB.

The day that his legs can no longer get him out of trouble, he is DONE as a QB.

(if his off the field activities don't ruin his career first)

Quote:

You blow off the fact that he threw 4 INTs with zero mobility because it was against a team that was not that good?

I think that you meant 4 TDs.

Yea... I think that feat was dimished greatly by the fact that it was the Cards.

Had it been against the Baltimore Ravens, I'd have been impressed.

The Cards were so ridiculously bad then that it's not even funny.
07-18-2007, 01:04 PM
Spank_Me_Hard

Quote:

Originally Posted by md1198p

Actually your own link shows he ran for over 1,000 yards..nice try though.

Nadda.

Like 980 in 2002.

Close, but no Cigar...
07-18-2007, 01:13 PM
Spank_Me_Hard

Ok... here we go:

Quote:

Originally Posted by md1198p

15th in the league....not elite but still an excellent season.

15th in the entire league that season, and you call it an "excellent season".

Now for Eli last season:

Quote:

That one little point he raised his QB rating there you keep talking about (to a whopping 77 )he owes to Burress for out jumping people and catching horrible passes into coverage.

How does his QB rating of 77 translate compared to the rest of the NFL?

http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/PRAT/2006/regular

18th in the entire league. And you had made the statement earlier that he "could not play in this league".

So by your standards, at 15th you have an "excellent season" and at 18th you "cannot play in this league".

Interesting...

:cool:
07-18-2007, 01:17 PM
Spank_Me_Hard

Quote:

Originally Posted by md1198p

GOOD. This guy has been a scum bag ever since he has been in the league. As hard as the NFL has tried to make him there cover boy, he is just an a-hole. This might be good for Atlanta, may be able to get out of that contract and get a real QB.

Must run in the family...

Not too much different than Marcus Vick...

I actually admire Vick's running talents... but this guy is a scumbag. Hope that his career is over.

And if Clinton Portis comes to his defence again like a complete MORON, I hope that his career ends too.

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