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There are many more receivers in the league than QBs....simple numbers. 18ths out of 60+ starting wideouts...(figure at about 2 per team starting ) is good, 18 out of 32 is below average. math is easy if you try.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
Also , all those players I listed where backs and receivers...to prove a point. Or maybe you think Mcnabb relies on his legs more than they do.
Its seems to me through my reading that Icky Woods would have been more of the exception to the rule than anything. 2 things to keep in mind about himQuote:
I suspect that if someone (a statistician with a REAL enjoyment of numbers) really crunched the numbers... that we'd see a OVERALL significant drop off in production the immediate year after knee reconstruction.
And for every Deuce McAllister, I can probably find an Ickey Woods. Or ten players who had a significant drop off the immediate year after.
(being the only example you have come up with to my 5-6), 1) it was in 1991, sports medicine has improved somewhat in the last 15 years or so, and 2) he had tons of off the field issues that helped prevent him from regaining his spot after the injury.
All of this would have been true pre-2004. Horrible recievers, no committment to the running games, and the time it takes to learn the Eagles Version of the WCO contributed to him running a lot, and needing to scramble due to holding the ball. None of this is the case anymore...as myself and a couple other people have said. He still CAN scramble and run if its needed, but he is a POCKET PASSER!!!Quote:
have had PLENTY of opportunity to see McNabb play. Aside from watching every Washington game that I can, I'll usually watch the other NFC East games just because I think that the rivalries in that division are the best in football. Even though I don't like Philly, or the Giants, and am rather neutral on Dallas... those are some GREAT games to watch. I have seen PLENTY of Philly games.
And I am fixated on McNabb's legs... for what I think is good reason... from what I've seen I think that he uses them a LOT.
In light of our discussion here, I will actually pay special attention to this this season (and I am contemplating buying NFL ticket for DISH). The Philly games that I am able to watch, I'll break it down. My guess from that games that I have watched in the past is that McNabb scrambles out of the pocket probably about 1/3rd of the pass plays. That is a LOT.
And if I am right... what is even more telling about that is that Philly has a good O-line... he gets a lot of time staying in the pocket anyways. He probablt gets more time... either staying in the pocket or scrambling... than any other QB in the game. This is a TREMENDOUS advantage for him to find open recievers.
Back when the Eagles starting receivers were Thrash and Pinkston, it was extremely frustrating watching McNabb being able to march the team down the field with basically little help from the running game. The receivers would have single coverage on them and would be blanketed from the get go. Eventually... McNabb would either:
a) run for good yards
b) dump it off to a RB or his TE who had all day to find a soft spot
c) eventually throw it to the WRs who had all day to eventually shake their coverage
or
d) scramble... draw the defence up to him and then do b) or c)
I mean it was ridiculous. I can't describe to you my frustration with the opponent teams pass rush not being able to apply ANY pressure to McNabb.
The flipside to that would be the Eagles D would be ALL OVER the other teams QB. Whether it was Trotter correctly guessing the snap count and blowing up the Center the moment he hiked the ball and creaing all kinds of disruption or Walker taking an O-lineman and tossing him aside right off the snap.
I remember wondering how McNabb would do under that exact same situation.
(by the way... I think that Jimmie Johnson is a MASTER Defensive Coordinator... would LOVE to have him on my team)
And all those years that the Eagles lost in the NFC Championship game... the team that beat the Eagles were able to rush McNabb, force him to stay in the pocket, read the defence and utterly confuse him.
They where 7-9...not that it matters. the guy played his bast game as a pro up to that point, threw 4 TDs on a broke ankle lol. Even bad NFL teams are still NFL teams.Quote:
think that you meant 4 TDs.
Yea... I think that feat was dimished greatly by the fact that it was the Cards.
Had it been against the Baltimore Ravens, I'd have been impressed.
The Cards were so ridiculously bad then that it's not even funny.
I still think the TD to INT ratio proves beyond doubt Mcnabbs ability as a passer, to read a defense and execute the offense. Mobility may have helped some, and I say IT STILL WILL...(the 5-8 or so times a game he needs to be "mobile" are not close to the 20-25 times a RB needs to cut and get hit, or the numerous routes and cuts a receiver makes, not to mention blocking).
yeah portis pretty much screwed the pooch with his asinine comment didn't he.
Vick is athletic and fast and can throw, thats it...he doesn't have the mental game to play QB, he can't read a defense.
he should have learned to catch the ball, cause he would be a wicked receiver if he tried for that instead.
Anyone watch the '10 best pass rushers' tonight? I tuned in just in time to see Bruce Smith, LT and Reggie go 4-3-2. Then, Deacon Jones.
Wasn't even born yet when this guy ruled, and I'm sure he was the best of his era. He's a legend. But damn, better than Reggie White? I think that must have been an homage thing. For DE's I wouldn't put him ahead of Reggie or Bruce.
Back before stats were kepy for sacks, Deacon Jonesd was supposed to have STUPID sack numebrs every year.
Mind you, a lot of those were caused by slapping the shi'ite out of the other guys earhole... which is illegal now.
What is really amazing about the "old time" ends is those guys (Reggie, Smith ect) where equally good against the run. Nowyou have pass rush specialists and all that crap.
so if your name is not michael vick and you do some stupid **** then you can expect to get the horn, otherwise carry on.Quote:
Vick and three co-defendants will be asked to enter pleas to the felony charges, and a date for the federal trial likely will be set during the arraignment. After that, Vick will probably be free to rejoin the Falcons as he awaits his day in court.
And the league, it seems, is inclined to let him play.
After consulting with the Falcons, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell and top league officials agreed Wednesday to let Vick play as the legal process determines the facts.
A person with knowledge of the meeting, who requested anonymity so the case would not be influenced, said the NFL would stick to that position for the foreseeable future, despite its new personal conduct policy.
In April, Goodell suspended Tennessee's Adam "Pacman" Jones for the 2007 season even though Jones had not been convicted of a crime. He did, however, have 10 encounters with police and five arrests since he was drafted in 2005.
NICE MESSAGE.
NICE CONSISTENCY.
even Nike is standing by this dog killah!
mike vick hilton is free to play another day.
let the QB poser extraordinnaire once again show everyone how not to play quarterback.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by vairox
But .... but... vairox! If you put all your stats into his running game on Madden, you can easily score a touchdown with a 99 yard run doing a QB sneak!!! That has to count for SOMETHING :p
This is true.Quote:
There are many more receivers in the league than QBs....simple numbers.
And yet, this is not the whole story.
A LOT of WRs aren't on the field for every snap. A lot of QBs are.
(thus, being ranked even 64th as a WR isn't nearly as bad as being the 64th ranked QB)
Also... there is a few more than 32 QBs who's ranking should be considered. I don't know where the line should be drawn, but some QBs get knocked out in the middle of the season and have a permanent replacement. The permanent replacement should have their QB rating rated too (cause maybe they actually started for 10 games or something).
Math IS easy... well at least the stuff that you are portraying.Quote:
18ths out of 60+ starting wideouts...(figure at about 2 per team starting ) is good, 18 out of 32 is below average. math is easy if you try.
But we're not doing math here... we are talking about QB ratings... not expressing 18 out of 32 as a percentage. Nice try.
18th out of 32 can very much still BE average (take a math class... it's easy if you try).
But that's not the arguement that you were trying to make. You specifically said that he cannot play in this league. I guess by your standards, the teams in the league should immediately axe every QB that falls below the 50th percentile. That would make for some fun!
Hmm... that one's too close to call...Quote:
Also , all those players I listed where backs and receivers...to prove a point. Or maybe you think Mcnabb relies on his legs more than they do.
:p
Maybe a bad example by me.Quote:
Its seems to me through my reading that Icky Woods would have been more of the exception to the rule than anything.
Ki Jana Carter maybe?
I could care less what the "consensus" is here. I've talked to plenty of people who share my thoughts on McNabb.Quote:
None of this is the case anymore...as myself and a couple other people have said. He still CAN scramble and run if its needed, but he is a POCKET PASSER!!!
I think that this year will be a great litmus test for him. Unfortunately, we'll just have to wait.
When it's all said and done, if McNabb stays in the pocket a LOT, reads the defences, and has a good year... I'll eat crow. I have no problem with that.
Will you be willing to eat crow should he have a sub standard year?
(by his previous standards?)
7-9 doesn't mean a d@mn thing. Some teams are better than their record indicates... some teams are worse. And everybody knows that the Cards have been the doormat of the league for since... well... forever.Quote:
They where 7-9...not that it matters. the guy played his bast game as a pro up to that point, threw 4 TDs on a broke ankle lol. Even bad NFL teams are still NFL teams.
I'm actually surprised that you are approaching that game like it was some heroic feat... beating the cards.
Cripes... Jack Youngblood played in a SuperBowl with a broken leg. THAT impresses me 10x more than McNabb being forced to beat the Cards by staying in the pocket of a good O-line.
I disagree.Quote:
I still think the TD to INT ratio proves beyond doubt Mcnabbs ability as a passer, to read a defense and execute the offense.
His TD to INT ratio is good... but I think that you undervalue the importance that his mobility plays in helping achieve that ratio.
Like I said... it seems to me like McNabb makes about 1/3rd of his passes outside the tackles.
As a comparison... a true "pocket" QB like Marino never came close to that.
ALLEGED Dog Killah. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by vairox
They screwed themselves, though. Anyone with half a brain knew they were getting rid of him one way or the other, so why would any other team trade for a guy they know will be available and not in particularly high demand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindwarper
I don't think he'll walk straight into a starting job, but his odds look pretty good if he goes someplace like Jacksonville who is known to not be all that confident in their current QBs.
Vick in Madden is almost as bad as tecmo bo.... I friggin hate when I go to play madden with someone and they instantly grab the falcons, you know what their game plan is.
McNabb never really struck me as a mobile QB, I mean he moves around in the pocket and can get outside the tackles and throw but.... what really constitutes being mobile? not being kerry collins? if you are used to throwing on the run it becomes part of your style, part of your success, it's how you buy time to read the defense... what if mcnabb really needs those 2 or 3 seconds extra to read the defense and he can't get them by running anymore? if he is used to buying time with his legs to find the open guy that "pocket passers" can do without running around then it's gonna be a tough transition for him IMO
what would happen if michael vick ripped his knees apart and HAD to throw from the pocket? he wouldn't make it 3 games before he was cut.... cause he can't hack it in the pocket, perhaps it isn't the same thing but you know what I mean.
monro - semantics, it went down on his property and he knew about it, he's just as guilty... the only thing alledged in this case is vick being innocent until proven guilty.
edit: interesting vick stat.... he has 2.9 passing yards for every rushing yard... this does not a QB make.
Exactly, innocent until proven guilty. Show me the court that has already proven him guilty of anything, be it participating in the dog fights or just knowing they were going on, and I'll start calling him a dog killer. There is no reason for sponsors to start dropping a guy when nothing has been proven. Remember the Duke Lacrosse players, I think they got suspended before there was even an indictment, and look how THAT turned out. Look at Kobe, everyone was calling him a rapist, and it turns out he's just an guy that had the bad sense to commit adultery with a chick who is totally bat-**** insane.Quote:
Originally Posted by vairox
Not renewing a contract is one thing, like what Airtran did with Vick, but nullifying the contract would come back to bite Nike HARD if he gets cleared. I'm not saying that he didn't do it, or that he did do it, but it's too early to be totally crucifying the guy.
I was pretty much just joking around anyway, note the smiley.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
I guess I just have higher standards for a #1 draft pick that has a ton of weapons than you than you do...I would have expected him to have played better by his 3rd year than he has. I do not think we will ever agree on this. We just have a different set of standards.
As for Walker. I think his number where excellent,especially considering he was in a new offense that runs the ball a lot more than Green Bay, and had 2 different QBs throwing him passes, one a true rookie, the other named Jake Plummer. I saw him play in like 3 games, and he looked very quick, cut great, I could not tell he ever had an injury.
I for one cant wait to see joey harrington play again......just not for my team!
We you are wrong anyway...again i have seen every Eagles game for the last 15 or so years, so I know exactly what kind of QB he is. I could come on here and state "Vick is a pocket passer, he stays in the pcoket and carves teams up....I watched him 5 times last year...." and just keep argueing it and i would be wrong.Quote:
could care less what the "consensus" is here. I've talked to plenty of people who share my thoughts on McNabb.
I think that this year will be a great litmus test for him. Unfortunately, we'll just have to wait.
When it's all said and done, if McNabb stays in the pocket a LOT, reads the defences, and has a good year... I'll eat crow. I have no problem with that.
Will you be willing to eat crow should he have a sub standard year?
(by his previous standards?)
Mcnabb reads defenses extremely well, again you cannot have that kind of TD to INT ratio if you cannot read a defense. Its just not possible. His flaw is he overthrows the easy short passes causing some incompletion's, but i will take that over bonehead throws caused by panic and indecisiveness.
Youngbloods game was amazing also. But you are downplaying a guy throwing 4 TD's on a broken leg because it was not against the 85 Bears defense? So no single game offensive feat has any validity unless it was against a great defense? Thats ridiculous.Quote:
7-9 doesn't mean a d@mn thing. Some teams are better than their record indicates... some teams are worse. And everybody knows that the Cards have been the doormat of the league for since... well... forever.
I'm actually surprised that you are approaching that game like it was some heroic feat... beating the cards.
Cripes... Jack Youngblood played in a SuperBowl with a broken leg. THAT impresses me 10x more than McNabb being forced to beat the Cards by staying in the pocket of a good O-line.
No, its elite.Quote:
His TD to INT ratio is good... but I think that you undervalue the importance that his mobility plays in helping achieve that ratio.
LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Recon
The Vick indictment is REAL BAD news for the Falcons.
Long term it could be good news...if it allows them to get out of his contract, they can start over with a real QB.Quote:
Originally Posted by gkline
I think that 1st round QBs should be judged differently than other 1st round players.Quote:
I guess I just have higher standards for a #1 draft pick that has a ton of weapons than you than you do...I would have expected him to have played better by his 3rd year than he has. I do not think we will ever agree on this. We just have a different set of standards.
Most 1st round QBs are out, or are on their way out of the league by this point in Mannings career. If I had to guess, I'd say that 75% of 1st round selected QBs are basically finished in their career at this point.
Manning on the other hand, is not only still very much in the league... but his QB rating has improved each year (even if ever so marginally), and he has thrown for more TDs than INTs. Not exaclty like he has lit the league on fire or anything, but exactly how many 1st round selected QBs can claim the same? Thats right... not many at all.
More 1st round selected QBs fail than probably any other single position.
That has it's own benefit in and of itself... play action pass. Single coverage by a CB going deep often. Especially if you are the featured WR... as I believe that Walker was (with Rod Smith aging).Quote:
As for Walker. I think his number where excellent,especially considering he was in a new offense that runs the ball a lot more than Green Bay
So it's a mixed bad there.
LOL!Quote:
We you are wrong anyway...
Well, it's a free country. You are certainly entitled to your own wrong opinion.
People usually see their own team through rose coloured glasses. I know that I do at times. You are no different than the rest of us in that regard.Quote:
again i have seen every Eagles game for the last 15 or so years, so I know exactly what kind of QB he is.
If there is any one single lesson that I have learned in life, it's never to say never.Quote:
Mcnabb reads defenses extremely well, again you cannot have that kind of TD to INT ratio if you cannot read a defense. Its just not possible.
I remember one Jake Plummer actually having a brilliant statistical season with the Broncos. Throwing a good number of TDs and quite a few INTs. And yet never for one moment did I think to myself... "Wow. Jake Plummer is a super star who can't do any wrong". And you yourself alluded to the idea that Plummer isn't a good QB in another post.
I would even venture to say that McNabb is a good (not great) QB. I'd be lying if I said that I wouldn't like to see him on the 'Phins. I just allow that that he makes a LOT of his plays based off his legs... and you do not.
I actually think that it's pretty remarkable. But at the same time I realize that it was against the Cards. I don't get too excited if my QB lights up the Cards... even on a bum ankle.Quote:
But you are downplaying a guy throwing 4 TD's on a broken leg because it was not against the 85 Bears defense?
I didn't say that (though I did show the other extremne end of the spectrum by using the Ravens). But DUDE... it was against the Cards. And not to say that McNabb is a bad QB... but a LOT of bad QBs have looked like the second coming of Joe Montana against the Cards.Quote:
So no single game offensive feat has any validity unless it was against a great defense? Thats ridiculous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
My point is I feel he would have been benched by now if not for all the circumstances that surrounded his arrival in NY. Tradeing 2 1st round pics(and a 3rd i think?) for him, his (and daddies) demanding to be traded, and the hype of his college career. His 18 INTs were 4th in the league I think, and when I rate QBs I look at that stat first, again my opinion.
As for Walker, you did not address he had 2 QB's, one being horrible, the other being a rookie. He still had an excellent year, and I did watch him play, not a sign of injury.
Could be!Quote:
Originally Posted by md1198p
Now you are comparing one season from Plummer to a career from Mcnabb? If it was one season Mcnabb had i would agree with you, but i posted career numbers, not single season.Quote:
If there is any one single lesson that I have learned in life, it's never to say never.
I remember one Jake Plummer actually having a brilliant statistical season with the Broncos. Throwing a good number of TDs and quite a few INTs. And yet never for one moment did I think to myself... "Wow. Jake Plummer is a super star who can't do any wrong". And you yourself alluded to the idea that Plummer isn't a good QB in another post.
I would even venture to say that McNabb is a good (not great) QB. I'd be lying if I said that I wouldn't like to see him on the 'Phins. I just allow that that he makes a LOT of his plays based off his legs... and you do not.
Benched for who? Lorenzen? Eli's an ok qb who has improved each year, you don't bench him and start over. The only QB's who could live up to the trades and hype are brady and peyton. The trades and all that, that's over now and you have to deal with the players you have.Quote:
Originally Posted by md1198p