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06-11-2007, 04:07 AM
md1198p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard

Easy! Any QB can benefit greatly by being put in the perfect situation.

The aforemention Mark Rypien:

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/RypiMa00.htm

SB year in 1991... 28 TDs, 11 INTs

Cunningham's best year:

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/CunnRa00.htm

His best year in 1998... 34 TDs, 10 INTs

Granted, Cunningham's best year was better... but you should be able to get the idea... an average QB (i.e. Rypien) can look brilliant in a good environment. And in 1998... in a perfect system with diminished physical skills... Cunningham was just that... an average QB in a great system.

Wow. Now THAT is a pretty bold statement!

There has been some pretty good QBs over the years... much better QBs than Cunningham ever was that come to mind.

Manning, Marino, and Elway come to mind.

Well, he did have some degree of talent around him on offense... it wasn't a total wash.

Mike Quick was a good WR for a few years. Keith Jackson was one of the games best TEs. Buddy Ryan cut Cris Carter. And Keith Byars was a pass catching DEMON out of the backfield. And wasn't Ricky Waters in Philly for one year with Cunningham?

So while Philly's O did leave somwething to be desired at times... it wasn't like Cunningham never had ANY talent around him. He did have some.

And just as I think that some QBs in todays game rely too much on their legs, and not enough on reading defenses to make plays (i.e. Micheal Vick) I think that Cunningham in his prime was the same way. Keep him in the pocket, and collapse it around him while forcing him to make the right read and the game is yours.

And it's nothing more than speculation... but I think that Harrington was put in the same situation as Cunningham in 1998 in Minnesota... that Harrington looks like the second coming of Joe Montana too.

In fact... looking at Harrington's numbers and considering the team around him for his entire career... I don't think that they look that bad.

Granted they are not great... but nor are they Vinny Testaverde-ish (in Tampa Bay) either. In fact, in 2004 he had 19 TDs and 12 INTs... Any Detroit fan will tell you... those ain't Andre Ware numbers there.

When Cunningham was in his prime in Philly, Fred Barnet was his best receiver...enough said. But the main thing working against him was the offensive system...or lack of one. I have read many accounts from different players on that team that have said Ryans game plan just wanted the offense to score 17 points and let the defense do the rest. Thats just stupid. A one look offense will never work, and thats what most of there plays called for. As for relieing on his legs, he was TOLD to run as much as possible by the coaching staff. That killed both his passing numbers, and also hindered his progress as a QB early. How can a QB learn to go though progressions when there are none?

I also did not say he was the best QB, but that he threw the best deep ball. I still say that. Out of the 3 you listed, none threw the deep ball better than him, and I always considered Elway a litle overrated. Look at some film from Randalls Minn. days, the receiver only had to have half a step and the ball just fell straight down into his arms.
06-11-2007, 07:57 AM
monroeski

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard

Easy! Any QB can benefit greatly by being put in the perfect situation.

I think that's kind of his point. Harrington would need to be in a perfect/great situation. Cunningham looked good though he never really had much help.
06-11-2007, 11:48 AM
vairox

it's all about rodney peete.
06-11-2007, 03:18 PM
fastitocalon

And everyone clamoring for Erik Kramer to play lol.
06-11-2007, 03:52 PM
Spank_Me_Hard

Quote:

When Cunningham was in his prime in Philly, Fred Barnet was his best receiver...enough said.

Mike Quick was a great reciever and I think that he played with Cunningham as well. In Quick's later years, and in Cunningham's early years... but I still think that they were together (when Quick was still a Pro Bowler).

And Jackson was one of the best TEs in the business at that time. Not a WR... but a very valuable guy to throw to. As was Byars.

And if he played with Ricky Waters, then he had a good RB for at least one season.

Quote:

I have read many accounts from different players on that team that have said Ryans game plan just wanted the offense to score 17 points and let the defense do the rest. Thats just stupid.

Yes it is. I was never a fan of Ryan as a head coach.

Quote:

I also did not say he was the best QB, but that he threw the best deep ball.

Yea. I read it as that and responded to it.

Marino with the Marks (Clayton and Duper) brothers was a formidable deep passing combo. As is Harrison/Manning.

As was also Elway back in the beginning with the "Three Amigos" (Vance Johnson, Mark Jackson, and Ricky Nattiel).

As I said... pretty bold statement considering some of the other deep ball combos in the game.

Quote:

I still say that. Out of the 3 you listed, none threw the deep ball better than him, and I always considered Elway a litle overrated. Look at some film from Randalls Minn. days, the receiver only had to have half a step and the ball just fell straight down into his arms.

A judgement call. And quite a bold one on your part I think.
06-11-2007, 03:55 PM
Spank_Me_Hard

Quote:

Originally Posted by monroeski

I think that's kind of his point. Harrington would need to be in a perfect/great situation. Cunningham looked good though he never really had much help.

And that was my point... in Minnesota, Cunningham had LOTS of help... with diminished physical skills.

Even in Philly, it wasn't like he had no help... he did have some talent around him. You can't blame it all on the players around him. And he did have a great D that kept him from being forced to rely on a one dimensional offense to get him "back" in the game. If you only ask him to contribute (re: not singlehandedly score) to 14 points and he can't do it... that says something.
06-11-2007, 04:15 PM
Spank_Me_Hard

On where Culpepper may end up:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6910928?MSNHPHMA

Keep in mind... this is right wing propaganda that is Faux News!

:)
06-11-2007, 05:26 PM
monroeski

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard

On where Culpepper may end up:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6910928?MSNHPHMA

Keep in mind... this is right wing propaganda that is Faux News!

:)

I almost closed the window automatically after seeing the Patriots on there. This guy isn't even trying to hide his attempt at sensationalism.
06-11-2007, 06:01 PM
Mindwarper

The fact that Culpepper is acting as his own agent is part of the problem. I don't think any team is going to pay him 5.5 mil. I don't think he'll be a starter. In fact, I doubt he will make a good back up. He's all about himself. He should work with the fins, not make statements that he can't back up. If he is traded, he has few options other then retiring or acting unprofessional. I didn't like him much before, now I dislike him. I just hope he doesn't end up at the raiders. We seem to get other teams dreck lately. Bring us your aging, slow and injured players.
06-11-2007, 06:02 PM
Snakespy

Quote:

Originally Posted by md1198p

and I always considered Elway a litle overrated.

eh, no.
06-11-2007, 06:05 PM
r'aggro

He was a great passer, just kinda funny looking.:D
06-11-2007, 07:30 PM
md1198p

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snakespy

eh, no.

Again...just IMO. You want to talk situations, Elway did not put up GREAT numbers until he had Davis running the ball, Sharpe(maybe the most prolific pass catching TE ever), etc. Before that his numbers where above average I guess, a lot of passing yards, barely over 1:1 TD to INT ratio, and not a great completion %. He did have the 4th quarter come backs, but he also lost a few superbowls where he did not play all that well.
06-12-2007, 12:15 AM
r'aggro

Like any seahawks fan I hated the guy for years, yet I couldn't help but be happy for him when he finally got a ring. He's a HOF'er either way.
06-12-2007, 07:42 PM
vairox

elways is better than average, huge whiner though....original ecry manning
06-13-2007, 03:05 PM
Spank_Me_Hard

Quote:

Originally Posted by md1198p

Again...just IMO. You want to talk situations, Elway did not put up GREAT numbers until he had Davis running the ball, Sharpe(maybe the most prolific pass catching TE ever), etc. Before that his numbers where above average I guess, a lot of passing yards, barely over 1:1 TD to INT ratio, and not a great completion %. He did have the 4th quarter come backs, but he also lost a few superbowls where he did not play all that well.

I was actually quite surprised when I looked up Elway's stats... they were not as eye popping as I thought that they would be.

"Overrated" may not be much of a stretch.

Still... I do remember him being the only reason why they won some games. 4th quarter comebacks and all. The kind of stuff that may not always show up on the stat sheets.

And I do remember him having an absolute cannon for an arm.

I'll pre-empt this by saying that I was, and never have been an Elway fan.

But I do remember one game where he made the #1 cardinal violation of being a QB in the NFL... he threw back across his body to the other side of the field to a reciever.

That is something that no QB is told EVER to do.

And yet Elway not only did it, but did it in spectacular fashion and got away with it. It was a bullet to the reciever and resulted in a crucial gain on the play.

I don't think that many QBs could have got away with that throw... and I remember the announcers saying as much.

I would not hold Elway in the same regard as I hold Joe Montana... but I do think that he did some things that do not show up on the stat sheet.

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