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Um...ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
First off, Tiki solved his fumbling years again, and Jacobs actually had a few fumbles in his limited carries.
Arrington is a free agent, and was involved in a car accident in the offseason. I think he is probably done.
Lastly..every year we are waiting for Manning to develop. It just never seems to happen. Even if he could actually play, he has zero leadership skills.
Um... ok.
Tiki had a low number of fumbles for two years... which BARELY qualifies for "years" ago (which implies that it is ancient history... which it is not).Quote:
First off, Tiki solved his fumbling years again, and Jacobs actually had a few fumbles in his limited carries.
Three years ago, he had 5. Four years ago... he had NINE... which in fact was where he was pretty consistent with his previous few years (i.e. a "history" of fumbling).
Would he have "solved" it this year? We'll never know.
You saying that Tiki "solved" his fumbling is like saying that Vinny Testeverde "solved" throwing interceptions.
Too much raw talent. Could be "done", but I doubt it. Maybe "done" with the Giants, but my guess is that he signs somewhere... if even just for a lower salary.Quote:
Arrington is a free agent, and was involved in a car accident in the offseason. I think he is probably done.
LOL!Quote:
Lastly..every year we are waiting for Manning to develop. It just never seems to happen. Even if he could actually play, he has zero leadership skills.
You're kidding right?
Manning has been in the league only for three years now. With only two as a fulltime starter.
He has thrown for 24 TDs, 17 INTs and 24TDs, 18 INTs respectively for those two full years of starting. His QB rating has raised every year (even if only by one point last year).
As for "leadership"... exactly how are you measuring that? Poking each QB with your "leadership-o-meter"?
You strike me as the perpetual Philly fan... minimizing your own teams deficiencies while blowing up another teams (and I am not Giants lover... in fact, I hate them).
So let's look at McNabbs first three years...
And they are shockingly close to Manning's overall.
So a rookie QB with a lot of hype comes in... and isn't the fulltime starter the first year (they had Kurt Warner that year who Manning was supposed to learn under).
He throws more TDs than INTs (by a fair amount) each of the full two years that he actually starts... and you are ready to proclaim "It just never seems to happen", and "he can't play".
LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL!
I think that he's doing just fine.
I wonder if you were saying the same thing about McNabb in his first three seasons...
Put on your rose coloured glasses when talking about Philly... and take them off when talking about the rest of the league.
Um... ok.
I noticed earlier today that Peter King of all people has the Lions in the middle of the pack as far as preseason rankings go. I've never liked that guy, he hates Seattle.Quote:
Originally Posted by spamjedi
Even my friends that are Giants fans think he sucks. When you walk off the field, shoulders slumped with an "awe shucks" look about you after throwing an interception, there is somethign wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
He has had LOADS of talent around him on offense. A top 5 running back, a very good tight end, and a huge reciever that bails him out constantly, outjumping a defender when he makes his patented "fade away lob pass". You cannot compare the weapons he has and the weapons Mcnabb had in his first 3 years. How many games has he won in that span? How many did Mcnabb win in his first 3 full years as a starter?
His qb rating last year was 77....it went up from about 76...big improvement :eek:
TD to INT, you are right, he has thrown more TD's than INT's. 54-44. But since you are so eager to compare him to Mcnabb..who boasts a gaudy ratio of 152 to 72. His first 2 full years it was 46-25. Not that I am here to compare the 2, but if we must.
Also, Arrington was done BEFORE he even arrived in NY. I think it was his knees. Also, Washington got tired of him freelancing and ignoring his assignments. He was not even starter before he left. Physical talent?...yes he HAD loads. Mental?...up for debate.
And with Tiki's fumbling, it was well reported that he completely changed the way that he carried the ball. Every game they showed the difference pretty much. That, combined with the low fumble totals for the last 2 years, lead me to have my opinion that the fumbling problem was solved.
You have never heard of his pass defending problems? Do you even watch football? This year it has really been exploited, but he has never been very good against the past. Now teams just pretty much pick on him. Even if they play him up in the box more this year, he stil needs to be able to help with deep coverageUnless they are gonna play 8 men in the box all year. I for one love the guy, I know every game we get one deep touchdown pass off him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
Darren Wodson was a pretty good all around safety, And Neman is a very good corner.
Giants fans are one of the worst knee jerk reaction fans in the league. Exceeded only by maybe Philly fans.Quote:
Even my friends that are Giants fans think he sucks. When you walk off the field, shoulders slumped with an "awe shucks" look about you after throwing an interception, there is somethign wrong.
I wouldn't put too much stock in what the average Giants fans thinks of Manning.
As for the "awe shucks" looks... what is more appropriate... a celebration? Indifference?
Disappointed, or even angry with oneself I think is a 100% predictable reaction. Not sure how you think that he should look after throwing a pick...
What does McNabb do? Give the offense high 5's ?!?
You are absolutely right.Quote:
He has had LOADS of talent around him on offense. A top 5 running back, a very good tight end, and a huge reciever that bails him out constantly,
But this is only 1/2 of the story... you yourself say their "D" is no good. If you are right, this would seem to mean that they are playing catch up a fair bit.
Unless that is you are going to reverse the statement and say that their D has been stellar.
You are right... McNabb had a MUCH better D backing him up than Manning had in his first few years.Quote:
You cannot compare the weapons he has and the weapons Mcnabb had in his first 3 years. How many games has he won in that span? How many did Mcnabb win in his first 3 full years as a starter?
Ergo, McNabb wasn't forced to abandon the running game nearly as much as Manning had to (you know... more pass defences, more pass rush, team becomes one dimensional, less ability to use that "top 5" running back the way that they want too).
Yes... let's compare.Quote:
TD to INT, you are right, he has thrown more TD's than INT's. 54-44. But since you are so eager to compare him to Mcnabb..who boasts a gaudy ratio of 152 to 72. His first 2 full years it was 46-25. Not that I am here to compare the 2, but if we must.
Interesting to see you prop McNabb's "gaudy" ration for his... um... CAREER.
Sweet. Since Manning has been in the league for all but what... THREE years, there is no way that we can compare the two apples for apples.
So the best that I can do is to compare both of their first three years.
(re: your "gaudy" career stats we can toss right out the window for the sake of this discussion... time to take off the rose coloured glasses for a bit)
Manning's QB rating (average) for his first three years is like 69.
McNabb's is like 77.
Different yes... but hardly earth shattering difference.
So what... given those numbers... if by your description... Manning can't play the game... what does that make McNabb in his first three years? Below average?
Is that what you were saying about McNabb after his first three years?
Manning has shown measureable improvement... so did McNabb.
And yet you basically call one a bust, and the other you seem to think can't do any wrong (i.e. we will be looking at the same McNabb this year... knee injury on a mobile QB and everything).
Interesting.
I for one look forward to watching McNabb be forced to be a pure pocket passer this year.
Let's see how good he can read a defense behind that vaunted Philly O-line.
My guess is that this will be his worst year in quite some time.
Lastly, it seems to me in this league now, you have a limited "window of opportunity" with a team that has been built to win a SB. Philly's "window" has been there for quite some time. Management has done a great job of keeping that "window" open.
And yet Philly has only come close once.
The law of averages will catch up with them at some point. They will lose players, coaches, and management to other teams (other teams LOVE to snipe off top successful talent) and Philly's window will CLOSE.
There better be a sense of urgency with that team this year.
Three Pro Bowls thus far.Quote:
Originally Posted by md1198p
Apparently, I don't watch any football... but three Pro Bowls in his career sounds pretty good to me.
Not sure how exactly he earned those Pro Bowls... I'm sure that they only select safeties for their run defence.
Which begs the question... if he's so good against the run, and so bad against the pass... why don't they play him at Mike backer?
No... Williams is a GOOD safety.
LOL...funny stuff. The Pro Bowl is a popularity contest. Micheal Lewis was also a probowler...and we benched him last year for the SAME EXACT things Roy Williams does, give up a ton of huge plays in the passing game. Now he found himself on a 49ers, and the train camp reports are that they are very unhappy with his performance in the passing game. Who would have thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
As for playing Roy at middle linebacker...are you on crack? he would get destroyed. He's a safety for gods sake...there is no way he could shed blocks as a middle linebacker.
I was obviously (though apparently not enough) and grossly (again... not enough) exaggerating.Quote:
Originally Posted by md1198p
I thought that everyone would "get" that.
I was wrong.
I agree with you to some extent about the Pro Bowl. But for the mostpart, I think that it is a good indicator of talent.
And apparently, scouts... GMs... and agents... agree with me.
My point is he has the poorest body language i have ever seen on a football field. You want your QB to be unflappable, or at least put the the appearance of it.Quote:
Giants fans are one of the worst knee jerk reaction fans in the league. Exceeded only by maybe Philly fans.
I wouldn't put too much stock in what the average Giants fans thinks of Manning.
As for the "awe shucks" looks... what is more appropriate... a celebration? Indifference?
Disappointed, or even angry with oneself I think is a 100% predictable reaction. Not sure how you think that he should look after throwing a pick...
What does McNabb do? Give the offense high 5's ?!?
No the defense has been bad. No excuse for not performing on offense when you have the weapons he has.Quote:
But this is only 1/2 of the story... you yourself say their "D" is no good. If you are right, this would seem to mean that they are playing catch up a fair bit.
Unless that is you are going to reverse the statement and say that their D has been stellar.
You ignored that I also posted his first 3 full years .Quote:
Yes... let's compare.
Interesting to see you prop McNabb's "gaudy" ration for his... um... CAREER.
Sweet. Since Manning has been in the league for all but what... THREE years, there is no way that we can compare the two apples for apples.
So the best that I can do is to compare both of their first three years.
(re: your "gaudy" career stats we can toss right out the window for the sake of this discussion... time to take off the rose coloured glasses for a bit)
Manning's QB rating (average) for his first three years is like 69.
McNabb's is like 77.
Different yes... but hardly earth shattering difference.
So what... given those numbers... if by your description... Manning can't play the game... what does that make McNabb in his first three years? Below average?
Is that what you were saying about McNabb after his first three years?
Until recently the Eagles stupidily ignored the running game anyway. He endured throwing pass after pass even when the other team knew exactly what was coming. They never abandoned the running game because they really did not use it. That stuff you posted about pass defenses and pass rush is ALL he has ever faced every play. And he still had success carrying the team offensively. Now Manning will probably have to do the same...lets see how it works out.Quote:
You are right... McNabb had a MUCH better D backing him up than Manning had in his first few years.
Ergo, McNabb wasn't forced to abandon the running game nearly as much as Manning had to (you know... more pass defences, more pass rush, team becomes one dimensional, less ability to use that "top 5" running back the way that they want too).
I would not count on the fact he will be completely immobile. Quite a few running backs have had the same procedure and went on to be there same productive self. He reads a defense and goes through his progressions very well...hence the OUTSTANDING td to INT ration.Quote:
I for one look forward to watching McNabb be forced to be a pure pocket passer this year.
Let's see how good he can read a defense behind that vaunted Philly O-line.
My guess is that this will be his worst year in quite some time.
Our window for our team in its current configuration will last as long as Mcnabb does...maybe 3 more years at a high level. The team itself is fairly young in a lot of positions, and we usually sign our guys young and let older players go. We also usually have a decent amount of cap room to fill holes and go after free agents if it makes sense. (IE Owens and Kearse in the same year (2004)).Quote:
Lastly, it seems to me in this league now, you have a limited "window of opportunity" with a team that has been built to win a SB. Philly's "window" has been there for quite some time. Management has done a great job of keeping that "window" open.
And yet Philly has only come close once.
The law of averages will catch up with them at some point. They will lose players, coaches, and management to other teams (other teams LOVE to snipe off top successful talent) and Philly's window will CLOSE.
There better be a sense of urgency with that team this year.
It's not wise to ignore the impact a bad D can (and does) have on a teams offense.Quote:
No the defense has been bad. No excuse for not performing on offense when you have the weapons he has.
When you get down... big... fast... and early, it changes your offensive gameplan. Period.
You can no longer afford to run the ball, grind it out, and play a possession game like you may have planned.
For a team with a good ground game, and a poor passing game... this is a death knell.
You can't imagine my glee when a poor passing team like Nebraska (yea... I know... college ball... but same concept) is forced into that situation.
And of course... the other teams D... knowing the situation that you are in... is going to play accordingly.
Thats true. I did. My bad.Quote:
You ignored that I also posted his first 3 full years.
My point was that McNabb's overall career numbers were not applicable to make a head to head comparison.
I disagree.Quote:
Until recently the Eagles stupidily ignored the running game anyway. He endured throwing pass after pass even when the other team knew exactly what was coming. They never abandoned the running game because they really did not use it. That stuff you posted about pass defenses and pass rush is ALL he has ever faced every play. And he still had success carrying the team offensively.
Philly very well may have CHOSEN to ignore the run... but the other team still had to honour it.
There's a HUGE difference between being forced to pass every play (and the other team knowing it) and CHOOSING to pass every play. Now I'm sure that the other team were aware of Philly's tendancies... but in a game that Philly wasn't behind huge... and in fact a lot of the time was leading... they still would have to honour the run.
Yes. This year will be a better indicator.Quote:
Now Manning will probably have to do the same...lets see how it works out.
FYI... there were a lot of people who wondered if Peyton Manning was going to be successful without Edgerrin James... that James helped contribute to what Manning was.
Well, with a much lesser back (still good... just not great)... Manning won a SB.
It's entirely possible that Tiki's retirement will not be that big of an impact.
Almost entirely in their second year back after the injury.Quote:
I would not count on the fact he will be completely immobile. Quite a few running backs have had the same procedure and went on to be there same productive self.
I personally can't think of any one player that blew out a knee that ended their season as was anywhere near their former self the very next season.
As in not even one.
This will be a very much different year for McNabb.
He also makes a lot of HUGE plays based off his legs.Quote:
He reads a defense and goes through his progressions very well...hence the OUTSTANDING td to INT ration.
From simple things like buying himself time scrambling out of the pocket, to scambling out of the pocket which in turn pressures the defense to not only cover their men... but to come up and honour his running ability.
How many times have you seen him flip a pass out to a guy who is open because the defence came up to get him? I have seen more than I care to remember (I cheer for Washington in the NFC).
For a largepart... kiss that ability goodbye for this year.
He will be forced to make the reads this year. I have never really been sold on his ability to have to rely on that... and he will be relying on it this year. I think that a VERY large number of his plays have resulted from his legs in one way or another.
I think that if McNabb becomes Bernie Kosar (in running ability), Philly's passing game is done.
Yes.Quote:
Our window for our team in its current configuration will last as long as Mcnabb does...maybe 3 more years at a high level. The team itself is fairly young in a lot of positions, and we usually sign our guys young and let older players go. We also usually have a decent amount of cap room to fill holes and go after free agents if it makes sense. (IE Owens and Kearse in the same year (2004)).
That is one VERY good things about your team... it has managed to reload maybe better than any other team that I have seen in the modern era.
But I think that time will catch up with it at some point. The law of averages cannot be denied forever... and it's already been too long for Philly.
You are right, a poor passing team will have a lot of problems when down early. And the Giants are a poor passing team....not because of there good recievers, great tight end, or the very good pass catching back they had, but because of the poor QB they have.Quote:
It's not wise to ignore the impact a bad D can (and does) have on a teams offense.
When you get down... big... fast... and early, it changes your offensive gameplan. Period.
You can no longer afford to run the ball, grind it out, and play a possession game like you may have planned.
For a team with a good ground game, and a poor passing game... this is a death knell.
You can't imagine my glee when a poor passing team like Nebraska (yea... I know... college ball... but same concept) is forced into that situation.
And of course... the other teams D... knowing the situation that you are in... is going to play accordingly.
I could argue a bad D would inflate pasing statistics. When the coach knows he is gonna give up a lot a points, you need to try and score more.Peyton Manning set the TD record and that Colts D was very bad that year. The year Marino set it, i am pretty sure the Dolphins had a bad D also (I did not look this up or remember).
I can tell you for a fact most teams we played, the Linebackers immediately dropped back in coverage or blitzed the hell out of us without any care for stopping the run. If we did get a few good runs in they pretty much ignored it and kept after the pass. Pissed me off a lot actually. Like i said, Reid is stuborn to a fault sometimes, thats why he gave up the playcalling. Also, playaction used to be pretty much useless for us, not so much for Manning when Barber was getting over 300 carries a year for 5 yards a pop.Quote:
I disagree.
Philly very well may have CHOSEN to ignore the run... but the other team still had to honour it.
There's a HUGE difference between being forced to pass every play (and the other team knowing it) and CHOOSING to pass every play. Now I'm sure that the other team were aware of Philly's tendancies... but in a game that Philly wasn't behind huge... and in fact a lot of the time was leading... they still would have to honour the run.
I will post a list when i am not at work...I saw a pretty long one somewhere, with a lot of backs on it. (EDIT) Actually i though of one already, Willis Mcgahee. He screwed his knee up in the last game of his 2003 season in college, and by week 6 in 2004 with the Bills he was playing. He had like 1100 yards in 11 games with 13 TD's. I know there are a bunch more...these injuries and knee surgury are so common now...routine is not the right word, but its not far from the truth.Quote:
Almost entirely in their second year back after the injury.
I personally can't think of any one player that blew out a knee that ended their season as was anywhere near their former self the very next season.
As in not even one.
This will be a very much different year for McNabb.
Another one that is a QB is Carson Palmer...I know he was never mobile anyway, but he still came right back and played the next year and had a pretty good year.
He does make a lot of plays with his legs..as far as passing and running he is the best IMO. But I think you are basing almost your whole imagine of his game on what you see on ESPN's top 10 plays. Since around 2004 he has mastered the WCO, and yes it has been said it takes about 5 years to completely master the system the Eagles use. He goes through his progressions very quickly, and generally makes the right throw. If a play is not there, he used to take off, but the last few years, he dumps it off to a back and lets them work, just as the WCO is supposed to work. His one flaw is he does throw short easy passes too hard once in a while, or in the dirt. I can live with the occasional mcnabb wormburner over INTS though. A QB that cannot read a defense could never have as few INTS in as many pass attempts as he does. Its just not possible.Quote:
He also makes a lot of HUGE plays based off his legs.
From simple things like buying himself time scrambling out of the pocket, to scambling out of the pocket which in turn pressures the defense to not only cover their men... but to come up and honour his running ability.
How many times have you seen him flip a pass out to a guy who is open because the defence came up to get him? I have seen more than I care to remember (I cheer for Washington in the NFC).
For a largepart... kiss that ability goodbye for this year.
He will be forced to make the reads this year. I have never really been sold on his ability to have to rely on that... and he will be relying on it this year. I think that a VERY large number of his plays have resulted from his legs in one way or another.
I think that if McNabb becomes Bernie Kosar (in running ability), Philly's passing game is done.
And I have seen him play when he was FAR LESS mobile than Bernie Kosar. In 2002 he was hit and injured on the 3rd play of the game. He left and came right back. Played almost the whole rest of the game, completing 20 of 25 passes and had 4 TD passes. He was as immobile as you can be, often falling after throwing passes or handing the ball off. It turned out his ankle was broken and he played the whole game on it.
.Quote:
Yes.
That is one VERY good things about your team... it has managed to reload maybe better than any other team that I have seen in the modern era.
But I think that time will catch up with it at some point. The law of averages cannot be denied forever... and it's already been too long for Philly
New England is better, they have the rings to prove it. ;)
Our "secret" is how well we milk the late rounds and UDF's. Also, the almost cruel way we just let older players go. Not too many guys we have cut or not resigned have went on to have a ton of success, Burgess is the one that comes to mind. We also do a great job of drafting 2-3 years in advance.
I am not bashing manning because he is a Giant or because he is Peytons brother. I just did not think he would be a good NFL QB coming out of college, and still don't. I am an Eagles fan and of course I root against the Giants, but i have liked and have had respect for quite a few of there players. Barber was awesome, very underrated, Diehl is very good, Osi is also a player.
The same with Roy Williams, I obviously hate Dallas being an Eagles fan, but thats not why I think he is not that good. I don't really think a one dimensional safety is very valuable. In todays NFL they exploit you so easily if you have a glaring weakness, and he gets turned around so easy on coverage its almost funny...he really does look lost a lot fo the time.