You're free to THINK that all you want, but anyone who watches the games KNOWS he is embarrassing in coverage. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
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You're free to THINK that all you want, but anyone who watches the games KNOWS he is embarrassing in coverage. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
Ok heres a few i found. McAllister had the injury in 2005...had 245 carries for over 1,000 yards in 2006.
Javon Walker also had it in 2005, had 69 catches for 1,000 yards last year.
Jerry Rice tore both his ACL and MCL in 1997. He did come back to early, THE SAME SEASON!!! he re-injured himself, but still made it back for 1998. That year he had 82 catches for 1,157 yards and 9 touchowns.
Edge had it too....and he played the next year, but it was for the cards...so of course his numbers went down. But he still had well over 300 carries for more than a 1000 yards. Yard per carry went down, but that was more the line than his injury i would bet.
There are a lot more...more than even i realized. I am not gonna post them all...but the above is a fair sample. Most of them where much more serious than Mcnabbs, tearing multiple ligaments. Mcnabb simply had a partial tear of the ACL. I am not downplaying it and it is serious, but all indications are that he is back.He participated in mini camps ahead of schedule, and is now doing his yearly workouts with other Eagle players in Arizona the same as every other year. To think he will have a horrible season is really not logical, he is recovered and in his professional prime, with the best offense around him he has had.
The Giants do have a good set of recievers (RBs, TEs, and WRs). But I don't think that Manning is that bad.Quote:
And the Giants are a poor passing team....not because of there good recievers, great tight end, or the very good pass catching back they had, but because of the poor QB they have.
Their O-line also doesn't really impress me much. Not nearly as bad as the Raiders, but porous when up against a decent rush. That factors in the equation.
You could... and to a degree you have some point. But in the big picture, it hurts statistics far more than it helps... lot's of INTs will be thrown. A QB could end up with 300 passing yards, but like 4 INTs to 2 TDs. That is pretty typical in that situation.Quote:
I could argue a bad D would inflate pasing statistics.
You are right with Manning and Marino (BTW... Marino's defence then was AWFUL!). But for every Marino or Manning, there is 10 other QBs who's stats suffer more than they gain.Quote:
Peyton Manning set the TD record and that Colts D was very bad that year. The year Marino set it, i am pretty sure the Dolphins had a bad D also (I did not look this up or remember).
A bad arguement to try to make I think.
Most of the time, the blitz works not only against the pass... but equally well against the run.Quote:
I can tell you for a fact most teams we played, the Linebackers immediately dropped back in coverage or blitzed the hell out of us without any care for stopping the run.
LBs dropping back I agree with you.
McGahee had a pretty decent year all things considering... but not dominant.Quote:
Actually i though of one already, Willis Mcgahee. He screwed his knee up in the last game of his 2003 season in college, and by week 6 in 2004 with the Bills he was playing. He had like 1100 yards in 11 games with 13 TD's.
Also... there was no "uninjured" benchmark for his NFL performance to measure him against.
He did about as good as anyone that I've ever seen after that injury. He represents near the top of performances after knee reconstruction. It's all downhill from there basically.
Palmer is a poor comparison. He doesn't rely on his legs so much.Quote:
Another one that is a QB is Carson Palmer...I know he was never mobile anyway, but he still came right back and played the next year and had a pretty good year.
Not at all.Quote:
He does make a lot of plays with his legs..as far as passing and running he is the best IMO. But I think you are basing almost your whole imagine of his game on what you see on ESPN's top 10 plays.
I actually get to see quite a bit of Philly games... mostly because of the fact that they are one of the better teams right now that seem to get more TV coverage that others.
And McNabb strikes me about as far away from a "pocket passer" as I can think of. Even with a very good line protecting him.
Take away his mobility, and he will suffer. I think that we can both agree with that. The difference in opinion between you and me seems to be how much he will suffer from greatly reduced mobility. I think greatly.
LOL!Quote:
I can live with the occasional mcnabb wormburner over INTS though.
"Wormburner"... never heard that one... I love it!
I'm not saying that he is a bad QB... I'd love to have him on my team (I was hoping that Culpepper would end up being the same). I just think that he's a little overrated, and also that a big part of his game is helped because of his scrambling.Quote:
A QB that cannot read a defense could never have as few INTS in as many pass attempts as he does. Its just not possible.
LOL! Is that even possible?Quote:
And I have seen him play when he was FAR LESS mobile than Bernie Kosar.
Against Arizona? Do we really need to say any more than that?Quote:
In 2002 he was hit and injured on the 3rd play of the game. He left and came right back. Played almost the whole rest of the game, completing 20 of 25 passes and had 4 TD passes. He was as immobile as you can be, often falling after throwing passes or handing the ball off. It turned out his ankle was broken and he played the whole game on it.
I could have sat in the pocket against Arizona's rush and picked apart their defence.
You are right... NE are MASTERS with their personel.Quote:
New England is better, they have the rings to prove it.
I love the way that they run their team... not really any superstars (even Brady doesn't gave the "glamour" factor that Manning has) just a good solid football team... right down to their second and third string players.
Who else put's a WR in as a DB because of injuries and gets away with it?
Thus far... Manning's stats look decent. A decent career thus far for any third year QB. I too was sceptical about Manning. I was sceptical about him riding the coat tails of his brother. I was sceptical about his brother riding the coat tails of his dad (I actually thought that Ryan Leaf would have been the preferable QB... LOL! Can you believe that?!?).Quote:
I am not bashing manning because he is a Giant or because he is Peytons brother. I just did not think he would be a good NFL QB coming out of college, and still don't.
NY people are notoriously hard on their players... if their team doesn't win a championship, they are judged as failures. I could care less if the average NYer has the patience of a two year old with their players.
If Mannings numbers keep on going up... if even just by a single point in the QB rating system... I think that's a good thing. His QB rating isn't that bad right now. And if it's done without Barber... it will even be that much more impressive.
We'll see. That's why they actually have to play the games first! :D
I don't think that a safety who can't play the pass can't exist in the NFL... period.Quote:
The same with Roy Williams, I obviously hate Dallas being an Eagles fan, but thats not why I think he is not that good. I don't really think a one dimensional safety is very valuable. In todays NFL they exploit you so easily if you have a glaring weakness, and he gets turned around so easy on coverage its almost funny...he really does look lost a lot fo the time.
First and foremost... they are as their name implies... a SAFETY. They are the last man back... first and foremost. Them supporting the run is just an added bonus if they can do that. But they are a DB... their job consists of MOSTLY working against the pass.
Otherwise, he'd be playing much more of a run support position... maybe even Willy backer (Mike was my overexaggeration of a run stopping defender).
Williams has made three Pro Bowls in his 6 year career. His pass D has to factor into that in SOME capacity.
I don't think that his man to man coverage is that great... in fact I think that it sucks (from what I've seen when he is isolated on a back or reciever). But put him in a zone, let him play the ball like a center fielder... and he'll take away a wide area, get some picks, and unleash some hellacious hits.
(he also appears to be pretty proficient at stripping the ball from the carrier)
BARELY over 1,000. Another example like McGahee... a very good year for someone recovering from knee reconstruction. Again... probably near the top of the list.Quote:
McAllister had the injury in 2005...had 245 carries for over 1,000 yards in 2006.
And looking at his career stats... not quite as dominant as he had been in the past.
If he was the featured back (i.e. didn't have to split playing time with Reggie Bush), I think that he'd have even a better year this year.
Again... a good year... but not nearly as dominant as he had been in the past. And again... just over 1,000 yards.Quote:
Javon Walker also had it in 2005, had 69 catches for 1,000 yards last year.
Dude... you're talking about the greatest reciever ever here.Quote:
Jerry Rice tore both his ACL and MCL in 1997. He did come back to early, THE SAME SEASON!!! he re-injured himself, but still made it back for 1998. That year he had 82 catches for 1,157 yards and 9 touchowns.
And pervious to the injury... look at his stats:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/126/career
His fewest receptions since 1991. His fewest yards since 1987.
A good year for the best reciever ever in the game coming back... but still not up to the level that he was playing at right before the injury.
Now Edge is more typical of what you see after an injury like this. His numbers are WAY down:Quote:
Edge had it too....and he played the next year, but it was for the cards...so of course his numbers went down. But he still had well over 300 carries for more than a 1000 yards. Yard per carry went down, but that was more the line than his injury i would bet.
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133320
His yard per carry are down 0.8 yards per rush... and he ran for less than 1,000 his first year back from injury.
And no... I don't think that it was because of his line. The subsequent years, he gets back to more normal "Edge" numbers.
Thank you for highlighting my point.
For every Jerry Rice, Deuce McAllister, or McGahee, you have 10 guys who suffer like Edge did.
I think that McNabb will be back being a mad scrambler... it just won't be this year.
When they fixed it... did they manage to "patch it up" somehow (I'm not familiar with this procedure as I fully tore mine), or did they fully tear it and then reconstruct it (in my case, they used a piece of my hamstring as replacement tissue... in other cases they use the ligament from a cadaveur)?Quote:
There are a lot more...more than even i realized. I am not gonna post them all...but the above is a fair sample. Most of them where much more serious than Mcnabbs, tearing multiple ligaments. Mcnabb simply had a partial tear of the ACL.
Or did they simply leave it as partially tore, and just hope for the best?
Each way has it's own benefits and drawbacks.
Can't wait to find out. But my money is on his lack of mobility is going to impact his game greatly.Quote:
To think he will have a horrible season is really not logical, he is recovered and in his professional prime, with the best offense around him he has had.
I bash Manning because he was coddled like a newborn up until after he signed with NY, hell he probably still is....
complete slap in the face to the entire league to come out of college and decide which team you are gonna play for, heads up... the draft runs the other way around.
it's a great honor to even be CONSIDERED good enough to play at the ultimate level, but no....you toss that thought in the trash and you start calling the shots, of course you are gonna look like a crybaby horse's ***... Ecry will always be the Manning who never could, not that madden predicts the future but in year 3 of my pranchise the giants had Eli as a backup, they signed Grossman...that's sad.
Well, he did once throw 4 TDs playing on a broken ankle. McNabb will be fine. I say that if he can stay healthy, he will be in the pro-bowl, and really only Brees is a threat to have a better season at QB in the NFC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
You are a fool to disregard Jason Campbell...Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfNoob
:D
LOL!
Kidding...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
Lol...all those guys had good seasons. If you don't Edge had a harder time picking up yards behind Arizonas line than he did the Colts line because it maybe supports your argument...ok fine. there are a ton more players that had this injury, either in the pros or college.
His was partially torn, just the ACL. Its was not as severe as Culpeppers, who tore all 3 ligaments. It was not even as bad as Palmers. I would have to look up exactly how it was repaired. Point is...this injury is just so common now that its more unusual for a player to not come back from it.
You really seem to be fixed on Mcnabb using mobility. I have watched every single game he has played in his career, since around 2004 he just does not run very much and really is a pocket passer. He can and does make some plays with his legs, but his game is to stay in the pocket and go though progressions. You are thinking of a game like Vicks, but it is much closer to a Steve Young, run if you have to.
You blow off the fact that he threw 4 INTs with zero mobility because it was against a team that was not that good?
Actually your own link shows he ran for over 1,000 yards..nice try though.Quote:
Now Edge is more typical of what you see after an injury like this. His numbers are WAY down:
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133320
His yard per carry are down 0.8 yards per rush... and he ran for less than 1,000 his first year back from injury.
And no... I don't think that it was because of his line. The subsequent years, he gets back to more normal "Edge" numbers.
Thank you for highlighting my point.
For every Jerry Rice, Deuce McAllister, or McGahee, you have 10 guys who suffer like Edge did.
I think that McNabb will be back being a mad scrambler... it just won't be this year.
15th in the league....not elite but still an excellent season.Quote:
Again... a good year... but not nearly as dominant as he had been in the past. And again... just over 1,000 yards.
NO lol...we cannot agree. why even type that, we have been arguing this fact for 2 pages here. I, (a) KNOW he does not rely on scrambling as much as you think he does, and (b) don't think he is gonna be this immobile sitting duck like you think.Quote:
Not at all.
I actually get to see quite a bit of Philly games... mostly because of the fact that they are one of the better teams right now that seem to get more TV coverage that others.
And McNabb strikes me about as far away from a "pocket passer" as I can think of. Even with a very good line protecting him.
Take away his mobility, and he will suffer. I think that we can both agree with that. The difference in opinion between you and me seems to be how much he will suffer from greatly reduced mobility. I think greatly.
You need to watch a few more games. I really think you must remember 1-2 plays a game and base your whole opinion of his game on that.
No you couldn't. It was a good display of how effective he could be just sitting in the pocket. He ran a lot more early in his career because of how long the offense takes to learn, Philly has one of the more complicated versions of the WCO. He also used to take a lot longer to read his progressions, he goes through them pretty quick now.Quote:
Against Arizona? Do we really need to say any more than that?
I could have sat in the pocket against Arizona's rush and picked apart their defence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vairox
I agree with this 100%. Also, if the Giants did not trade so much to get him, and the huge deal had been made at the draft by him and his daddy that brought him there, I bet the Giants would have drafted a QB this year, probably Quinn. Its not just a matter of numbers, his being average at best. He does not look to be improving and a lot of the time just looks lost. A little pass rush and he panics, has no poise and just lobs up a pass. That one little point he raised his QB rating there you keep talking about (to a whopping 77:eek: )he owes to Burress for out jumping people and catching horrible passes into coverage.
His brother struggled his first few years but he did not have that same lost look that Eli has.
Michael Vick Indicted....
as the worm turns....hope you didn't draft this dude in your FF