Ohh... and at least statistically from QB rating last year... he was 15th in the league. Hardly inspiring, but hardly Clemens-esque either.
The Jets could have had... and in fact did have a lot worse QB...
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Ohh... and at least statistically from QB rating last year... he was 15th in the league. Hardly inspiring, but hardly Clemens-esque either.
The Jets could have had... and in fact did have a lot worse QB...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
The only jet game i saw was the one vs the eagles, and he pretty much killed them in that game. His lack of any arm strength at all takes away such a large part of the field thats its very easy to cover the receivers. And one time he tried to throw a deep pass it was so under thrown the conner had to stop and run back to intercept it, almost like fielding a punt.
Its also my opinion that Montanas arm was stringer than Chads. Hell it probably still is. Chads arm was weak before he screwed it up, but he could still make the throws. Now, after 2 (i think) shoulder surgeries, its just shot. When the defense can just ignore covering areas of the field the offense is at too much of a disadvantage to overcome.
That is worth noting... that I think that he had his best season before he injured his shoulder (seperation?). I also remember that when Pennington came into the league that his weak arm was well known.Quote:
Originally Posted by md1198p
But it's also worth noting that at one point in his life he threw the deep ball to a little known deep threat by the name of Randy Moss. Once upon a time it had to have been adequate to get the ball deep to Moss.
And while I do think that his arm is weak... I don't know that any defense can "ignore" any part of the field when playing against an NFL QB. The guy is a pro... not a grade schooler...
As for Montana's arm being stronger... that's a judgement call... Montana's arm was plenty weak as well. Neither would be mistaken for John Elway.
He is a pro, who after all the arm troubles cannot throw the ball much more than 40 yards. His arm is not weak by NFL standards, its weak by human standards. Defenses can and do ignore throws like the deep out, ect. because he simply cannot throw it, and if he does try and throw it will be incomplete or intercepted. You forget he was throwing to Moss in college before all the shoulder problems. Already weak arm + hamburger shoulder = even weaker arm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
Will be interesting to actually see this...Quote:
Originally Posted by md1198p
Not at all.Quote:
You forget he was throwing to Moss in college before all the shoulder problems.
Ergo the "once upon a time".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
Why bring the "once upon a time" into a discussion about "now"? Who he threw to in college or how strong his arm was then has no bearing on how strong it is now, after all the shoulder problems.
Now after saying all this, i think he could make an excellent backup, especially for a team with a young QB. He is very smart, reads defenses well, etc. A team the had just drafted a franchise QB in the last year or 2 would do well to have him as a backup, in spot duty i could see him playing well for a few games. A team like Minnesota, for instance , would have been a great place for him to have landed. He could have helped jackson, and if he had to fill in, he could just "caretake" or "managed" the offense with the strong running game and O-Line they have.
Because he threw to THE deep threat from the last 10 years in college. Read between the lines... his arm then had to be at least "somewhat" adequate to throw the deep ball. And even after the surgeries... the Jets decided to have him around for a few years and the 'Phins decided to get him. I just don't see it possible that given your description of his lack of arm strength that he could even BE in the NFL. Aside from the 'Phins... some 6 other teams were apparently interested as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by md1198p
While I hear, and agree that his arm strength is weak... I have a hard time believing that an NFL QB can't throw the ball 40 yards. Look at the center of an NFL field (i.e. where a QB could be) and draw a 40 yard radius from that point. That eliminates a lot more than just the deep out patterns. The QB that you describe (i.e. with a 40 yard limitation) just can't exist in the NFL.
Now what a weak arm strength DOES mean is that he won't be throwing a deep out on a line... it'll have plenty of arc in it allowing the pass to be picked off a lot easier (assuming that a DB has a better chance at it than the intended reciever does).
There will be limitations... but defences won't be flat out ignoring parts of the field... that's just plain stupid.
The first time that I see Pennington throw a pass more than 40 yards... we'll be re-visiting this conversation.
http://www.truveo.com/Week-7-Chad-Pe.../id/2513812044Quote:
Originally Posted by md1198p
50 yard pass. Last year. Discussion over.
Unless that is you're going to grasp at straws and say that his arm has fallen apart in the last 8 months since. Gonna go there?
I've never seen someone so adamant to defend Chad Pennington for absolutely no reason. You're not only arguing everyone here at Sharky's, you're arguing every NFL analyst in the world. They all say he has an incredibly weak arm. And you're also arguing against the obvious I pointed out earlier: he was fighting for a starting job against the worst QB of 2007. And then he was released from the Jets instead of the aforementioned worst QB.
I have no idea why you have such a hardon over this guy, but you should devote that energy to something more beneficial.
Despite the guy being a Jet (whom I loathe), I actually liked and respected the guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDigital
I know his arm is weak... but obviously... it's not as bad as experts like you "advertise" (unless you didn't see that 50 yard pass in the clip... NO expert ESPN analysis needed... open your f'king eyes).
As for the release... you don't think that the cap and his salary had anything to do with it there skipper? Or are you gonna take Pennington's and Clemen's from last year and try to make your case? I know w rat who doesn't know how to jump ship when it's sinking...
In no way am I trying to make him sound like the second coming of Christ. But a more balanced analysis (which you seem incapable of) indicates that he is a decent NFL QB who can in fact throw more than 40 yards. At any rate... a HUGE improvement over what the 'Phines currently have. So yea... I'm excited about my team's upgrade... sue me!
(pointing out the obvious)
Dude even a stopped clock is right twice a day. What sort of wind was on his back that day? Maybe there was a freaking hurricane going on and he had 50mph winds helping him.
You sure love to find anomalies and use them as proof of something.
Anyways, glad your team picked up someone you like. And yeah, he's a major upgrade from what they had.
I gotta agree. Spank I don't know why you're defending his arm so much. Yes he's smart and has had a couple good seasons, but his weak arm limits the offense's playbook and allows the defense to not worry about the deep ball as much. If that wasn't true he'd still be the jets starting QB and they wouldn't have started clemens last season, or gotten favre this season. He would have been traded if the rest of the nfl thought he could throw the ball deep, you don't release a guy if you think you can trade him for something worthwhile. I think you're the only guy in the world who thinks chad has an average arm.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDigital
You're basically standing outside in the rain dripping wet trying to tell us it's sunny outside.
Yes he's a huge upgrade for the dolphins. But he did't somehow acquire a cannon when he changed his jersey.
Have you read my posts?Quote:
Originally Posted by PriMaTe
I'm not defending his arm. I have acknowledged that it is in fact weak.
What I am saying is that his arm is not as weak as people here are advertising. Furthermore, I link a video where he throws a 50 yard bomb (at least... probably further because the guy most certaintly didn't catch it in the exact same place in the middle of the field lined from where Pennington threw it).
Then we get someone grasping at straws that there had to be a wind at his back... based off of WHAT exactly?
I have said many times that he doesn't have an arm like Elway. But in the sdame token, he IS an NFL QB and as such DOES throw further than the 40 yards stated here (re: NOT as weak as is being portrayed).
Do I want to see him throwing deep outs for the 'Phins? Nope... absolutely not.
Do I think that he can throw the ball 50 yards without a wind at his back? Yes.
And rest assured that if I see it this season... we'll be revisiting this conversation.
Limits the playbook (i.e. can't throw a deep out on a rope)... doesn't allow the defense to ignore large portions of the field (defense can't exactly allow him to throw a deep out uncontested if a reciever is there)... there is a word of difference.Quote:
Yes he's smart and has had a couple good seasons, but his weak arm limits the offense's playbook and allows the defense to not worry about the deep ball as much.
Decisions don't always have to make sense. Look at Pennington's stats last season (I've linked them) and compare them to Clemen's (they are there too). Tell me who the starting QB should have been.Quote:
If that wasn't true he'd still be the jets starting QB and they wouldn't have started clemens last season, or gotten favre this season.
Who is going to trade for someone that they know they'll be able to get for free if they wait?Quote:
He would have been traded if the rest of the nfl thought he could throw the ball deep, you don't release a guy if you think you can trade him for something worthwhile.
Where have I ever said "average"... SHOW ME.Quote:
I think you're the only guy in the world who thinks chad has an average arm.
SHOW ME where I've said that his arm is even "average".Quote:
Yes he's a huge upgrade for the dolphins. But he did't somehow acquire a cannon when he changed his jersey.
Seriously... you guys don't get that any (I mean ANY and EVERY) NFL QB has to be able to throw 40 yards?
Really?
Seriously?
His arm is weak enough that it is a liability. Defenses can and did pay little attention to the deep parts of the field. Corners played receivers tight, and the safeties played close to the line. Close enough that it killed their running game. They faced 8 man fronts all year, not because they had a game breaking running back, but because they did not need safety help. Even if the receiver gets gets a step, the defender will probably catch up by the time the ball gets there. Sure if the receiver gets a few steps right off the line, and he sees it right away, he can lob up a duck and let the receiver run under it (like in your clip). But how often is that going to happen?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
BTW...I as does everyone else knows he can physically throw throw ball more than 40 yards...with wind at his back, a lot of room to step up, and against the rotation of the earth. I was being sarcastic for the most part. But would you really defend against it? or would you squeeze the receivers, and bring your safeties up? And what can an offense do you counter this defense if the QB simply cannot make the throws needed to "loosen" the defense up?
And why did every team know he would be available without needed to trade for him? Because he had the worst arm out of any QB in the league.
Fair enough. This much I agree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by md1198p
But that is a far cry from defenses being able to "ignore" parts of the field because he can't hit them.
The guy was 1-7 last year. Regardless of how good you think he is, obviously defenses know how to do SOMETHING to defend against the guy. And if that's play everyone tight because he can't throw it long, it would explain a lot.
One last thing QB rating is pretty much a meaningless stat. I pretty much ignore it. It is a poor and flawed way to measure a QB's value to a team.
If 2 Qbs each throw 3 passes, from there opponents 30 yard line. One goes 3 for 3 for 10 yards each and a TD. The second goes 1 for 3 with a 30 yard TD.
The first guy would have a rating of 147.9.
The second a rating of 111.1.
For the exact same result, 3 pass attempts, 30 yards passing and a TD. Now thats a dumb stat and dumb formula.
I look at TD to INT percentage, and yards per attempt. The first shows you score points and hold onto the ball for your team, and the second shows you are moving the ball and probably getting first downs. Also, by default, a good yards per attempt means your completion percentage is probably at least pretty good, because an incomplete pass is obviously zero yards, which will lower the yards per attempt.
The record doesn't really mean anything to me. The teams record really doesn't mean anything about how an individual players has played.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDigital
That to me is a meaningless stat for measuring an individual player's performance.
I do agree that it's not always a fair measurement, but in the same token don't think that it's meaningless either.Quote:
Originally Posted by md1198p
If this is the case for you... compare Pennington's and Clemen's stats from last year and tell me that Clemen was the better QB.Quote:
I look at TD to INT percentage, and yards per attempt. The first shows you score points and hold onto the ball for your team, and the second shows you are moving the ball and probably getting first downs. Also, by default, a good yards per attempt means your completion percentage is probably at least pretty good, because an incomplete pass is obviously zero yards, which will lower the yards per attempt.
Clemens won more games... but as far as who the better QB was the stats show the real case I think.
In other news... the Steelers signed Leftwich. I would have been happy with the 'Phins had they sighed him as well. And I think that it was a mistake for Miami to give up picks for Culpepper, and then give up on him so early.
Here are the stats... again:
http://www.nfl.com/teams/newyorkjets...YJ&seasonType=
Percent passes completed:
Pennington 68.8%
Clemens 52%
16.8% differential in Pennington's favour. Very significant I'd say.
Yards per attempt:
Pennington 6.8
Clemens 6.1
0.7 yards per attempt differential in Pennington's favour. Again quite significant.
TD percentage
Pennington 3.8%
Clemens 2%
Pennington threw almost twice as many TDs per pass attempt. MASSIVE differential in Pennington's favour.
INT percentage
Pennignton 3.5%
Clemens 4%
Not quite so huge of a differential in Pennington's favour, but still significant.
By your own measuring standards... Pennington is clearly the better QB.
And just out of curiosity... as for QB rating
Pennington 86.1
Clemens 60.9
Now if you are a coach in the NFL and you have the choice between these two QBs... who do you start?
Rhetorical question.
You say that like it doesn't matter, but that's why he was benched midway through last season and why he was fighting for a starting job this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/08/sp...=1&oref=slogin
Quote:
Clemens posted a lower completion percentage (52 percent to 68.8 percent) and lower passer rating (60.9 to 86.1) than Pennington, and threw fewer touchdown passes (5 to 10) and more interceptions (10 to 9). But the Jets (4-12) won three games with Clemens as the starter and only one with Pennington.
...
As for Clemens, Tannenbaum said, “There are going to be some ups and downs, but there are some reasons to be encouraged.” He pointed to Clemens’s proficiency in leading two-minute drives and his performance in a win against the Dolphins.
If I am coach, who do I start...I start the guy who I think gives me the best chance to win. And if i am pretty sure the season is shot, I start the guy with the most upside. At least if am thats what i would do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
Also, don't make this a Pennington VS Clemons argument...they both suck. I am not defending Clemons and at know time showed any support or even mentioned him. This was about Penningtons noodle arm and thats it.
Obviously it mattered to whom was making the actual decision on who to start... the Jets coach (or management depending upon who you think calls the shots).Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDigital
Like I said... decisions don't have to make sense (re: compare their individual stats).
The Jets just so happened to win more games under Clemen's. In SPITE of him... not BECAUSE of him.
We all know that football is a team game... maybe THE ultimate team game (at least in my own opinion). A lot of emphasis gets put on the QB and his production. But I think that there were probably many other factors (re: running game, defense, etc.) in the Jets winning more games under Clemens than under Pennington.
I know who I'd be starting if I had the choice between the two...
Who'd you start?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
I would go hunting for a QB ASAP if thats what i had to choose from. Oh wait the Jets did too.
I don't even have the slighest knowledge of NY Jets QBs, so it doesn't matter who I would start. I'd defer to the judgement of the guy who watched them play every single day, who watched endless amounts of game film and knew what he was looking for when watching them perform.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
Delegation, I'm good at it.