The Official NFL Thread

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Originally Posted by md1198p

If I am coach, who do I start...I start the guy who I think gives me the best chance to win.

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Well you won't answer the question, so I will... you start Pennington over Clemens. At least based off the most current data that you have on the two.

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And if i am pretty sure the season is shot, I start the guy with the most upside. At least if am thats what i would do.

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This makes sense too. But does anyone actually believe that Clemens HAS an upside? Cause I sure don't...

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Also, don't make this a Pennington VS Clemons argument...they both suck. I am not defending Clemons and at know time showed any support or even mentioned him. This was about Penningtons noodle arm and thats it.

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Fair enough.

I just kept on hearing the "Well, the Jets decided to start the worst QB in the league over Pennington... so what does THAT say about Clemens?" arguement... Which was in some strange way trying to allude to the idea that Clemens is a better QB than Pennington. Which is ridiculous.

I have no illusions that Pennington will rescue the 'Phins this year. I have no illusion that Pennington is the 'Phins QB of the future.

What I DO know about Pennington is that he is a significant upgrade over the pathetic QBs that they have (anybody with the last name of "Lemon" should automatically NOT be your starting QB). So I am very happy with the upgrade... even if it's only a short term solution. I look forward to the 'Phins not looking as completely pathetic as they did last year (only "mostly" pathetic this year).

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Originally Posted by MrDigital

I don't even have the slighest knowledge of NY Jets QBs, so it doesn't matter who I would start. I'd defer to the judgement of the guy who watched them play every single day, who watched endless amounts of game film and knew what he was looking for when watching them perform.

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LOL!

There is a "cop out" if I've ever seen one...

Geez... here you have been making mention that the Jets went to Clemens over Pennington all this time... as if he was a better QB.

I was starting to think that you actually had an opinion on it! How'd I have got that crazy idea?

(rolls eyes)

Mangini saw them everyday. He had on opinion himself. Based off the ending stats, I don't trust his decision... his expertise in "who" the starting QB should be. I have my own opinion... based off the QBs stats.

I suspect that you do to... but have painted yourself into a corner and now refuse to give it.

NEVER have I seen you be shy about giving your opinion... until now. More than coincidental.

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Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard

Well you won't answer the question, so I will... you start Pennington over Clemens. At least based off the most current data that you have on the two.



This makes sense too. But does anyone actually believe that Clemens HAS an upside? Cause I sure don't...



Fair enough.

I just kept on hearing the "Well, the Jets decided to start the worst QB in the league over Pennington... so what does THAT say about Clemens?" arguement... Which was in some strange way trying to allude to the idea that Clemens is a better QB than Pennington. Which is ridiculous.

I have no illusions that Pennington will rescue the 'Phins this year. I have no illusion that Pennington is the 'Phins QB of the future.

What I DO know about Pennington is that he is a significant upgrade over the pathetic QBs that they have (anybody with the last name of "Lemon" should automatically NOT be your starting QB). So I am very happy with the upgrade... even if it's only a short term solution. I look forward to the 'Phins not looking as completely pathetic as they did last year (only "mostly" pathetic this year).

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Another stats you will probably try to pick apart, in noodle arms 9 starts, the Jets ran for 89.8 yards. In Clemons 7 starts they ran for 126.4. They where far more consistent also, only breaking 100 yards for Pennington 3 times out for 9, while doing it 5 times out of 7 while Clemons started.

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Originally Posted by md1198p

Another stats you will probably try to pick apart, in noodle arms 9 starts, the Jets ran for 89.8 yards. In Clemons 7 starts they ran for 126.4. They where far more consistent also, only breaking 100 yards for Pennington 3 times out for 9, while doing it 5 times out of 7 while Clemons started.

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One can interpret that a vast number of ways. It is a stat that can mean many things.

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Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard

One can interpret that a vast number of ways. It is a stat that can mean many things.

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I am interpreting it to mean that teams did not stack the box like they do when Pennington played and the Jets had an easier time running. Their starts where both spread throughout the season, kinda mixed up. They also averaged a half a yard more per carry when Chad did not start.

That probably had a lot to do with the Jets winning more games when Clemons started.

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Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard

LOL!

There is a "cop out" if I've ever seen one...

Geez... here you have been making mention that the Jets went to Clemens over Pennington all this time... as if he was a better QB.

I was starting to think that you actually had an opinion on it! How'd I have got that crazy idea?

(rolls eyes)

Mangini saw them everyday. He had on opinion himself. Based off the ending stats, I don't trust his decision... his expertise in "who" the starting QB should be. I have my own opinion... based off the QBs stats.

I suspect that you do to... but have painted yourself into a corner and now refuse to give it.

NEVER have I seen you be shy about giving your opinion... until now. More than coincidental.

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But he made the correct call...they won more games when he went to Clemons.

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Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard

Geez... here you have been making mention that the Jets went to Clemens over Pennington all this time... as if he was a better QB.

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Do you just make stuff up in your head and then argue about it? Where did I say they went to Clemens? I said exactly what everyone else said -- they were fighting for the starting job.

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I was starting to think that you actually had an opinion on it! How'd I have got that crazy idea?

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No, my opinion is that Pennington isn't very good, which is what I stated. You're the one trying to turn this into a "who would you start if you were the coach" discussion, which I couldn't care less about.

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Mangini saw them everyday. He had on opinion himself. Based off the ending stats, I don't trust his decision... his expertise in "who" the starting QB should be. I have my own opinion... based off the QBs stats.

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Wow, good thing you're not an NFL coach. Or rather, obviously you're not an NFL coach. Making a decision based solely on QB stats? What about subjective factors, like leadership ability or healthiness? You ever think of using something more than grade 2 math?

As shown, the Jets couldn't win with Pennington. They COULD win with Clemens, regardless of his stats. So why would the coach start a guy who can't win games for the team? Just so that people like Spank_Me_Hard can argue on the Internet?

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Originally Posted by md1198p

I am interpreting it to mean that teams did not stack the box like they do when Pennington played and the Jets had an easier time running. Their starts where both spread throughout the season, kinda mixed up. They also averaged a half a yard more per carry when Chad did not start.

That probably had a lot to do with the Jets winning more games when Clemons started.

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I figured that was the way that you'd probably interpret it.

I interpret it differently of course.

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Originally Posted by md1198p

But he made the correct call...they won more games when he went to Clemons.

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Again won BECAUSE of Clemens, or IN SPITE of?

An arguement can be made either way... but none definitively.

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Originally Posted by MrDigital

Do you just make stuff up in your head and then argue about it? Where did I say they went to Clemens? I said exactly what everyone else said -- they were fighting for the starting job.

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Thus alluding to that Pennington wasn't good enough to keep his job from one of the worst QBs in the league.

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No, my opinion is that Pennington isn't very good, which is what I stated. You're the one trying to turn this into a "who would you start if you were the coach" discussion, which I couldn't care less about.

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That was an add on question to the debate which I asked just recently.

I wanted to see who you guys would start. Oddly enough, nobody would give a straight up answer. Which I found very telling...

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Wow, good thing you're not an NFL coach. Or rather, obviously you're not an NFL coach. Making a decision based solely on QB stats? What about subjective factors, like leadership ability or healthiness? You ever think of using something more than grade 2 math?

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You needed this thread to figure that out? LOLOLOLOL!

I wouldn't make the arguement based off stats and stats alone. But in the same token... nor would I based off wins alone. Perhaps you don't understand the concept of a TEAM game. No one player... even a QB... can win or lose a game all on their own. It's like judging an NHL goalie based off their "wins"... it's retarded.

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As shown, the Jets couldn't win with Pennington. They COULD win with Clemens, regardless of his stats. So why would the coach start a guy who can't win games for the team? Just so that people like Spank_Me_Hard can argue on the Internet?

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Here's my theory...

Just so guys like Digital can still cling to their ego... still on the ship despite it being at the bottom of the ocean.

Pennington was better in almost every meaningful way possible than Clemens... and the Jets still lost games despite it. The Jets start Clemens and win marginally more games despite him being one of the worst QBs of the league. Pennington won ten games the year previous. Did the Jets and Pennington's arm BOTH degrade that much over the course of one year?

Rhetorical question Digital. You cantanswer anyways with your ego sitting on your ship at the bottom of the ocean... LOL!

BTW. If I make decisions based soley off of stats... what does this mean:

I won the unofficial Sharkies NFL pool last year. You didn't. What does that say about your NFL analytical skills compared to mine?

If you compare that to a QBs "wins vs. losses", I am 1-0 and you are 0-1. Based off our most current data, who's analytical skills seem better thus far?

Rhetorical question Digital... LOL!

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Originally Posted by md1198p

But he made the correct call...they won more games when he went to Clemons.

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Again won BECAUSE of Clemens, or IN SPITE of?

An arguement can be made either way... but none definitively.

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Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard

I figured that was the way that you'd probably interpret it.

I interpret it differently of course.



Again won BECAUSE of Clemens, or IN SPITE of?

An arguement can be made either way... but none definitively.

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Oh they definitely won more games with Clemons. That is definitive. My argument has facts to support it...wins and losses are hard numbers, therefore fact. Your "in spite of" argument is merely you opinion, and opinion is not fact.

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Originally Posted by md1198p

Oh they definitely won more games with Clemons.

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No doubt.

But that's not what I was referencing. I was specifically referencing "because" or "in spite of"... Which isn't conclusive. Definitively.

You've spent 20 posts trying to sidestep the fact that Pennington's arm is garbage and he got released from the Jets instead of Clemens, so the people who know him better than you have already decided what he's worth.

They didn't even bother trying to trade him... "LOL".

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Originally Posted by MrDigital

You've spent 20 posts trying to sidestep the fact that Pennington's arm is garbage and he got released from the Jets instead of Clemens, so the people who know him better than you have already decided what he's worth.

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Nadda.

I've stated many times that Pennington's arm isn't strong.

Maybe reading comprehension isn't big in the Ontario public school system... I don't know. I suspect that you don't know either.

And I also suspect that Pennington's salary had something to do with his release as well. But I suspect that you are unable to factor that into the equation as well. I see a common denominator in your thought process... LOL!

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They didn't even bother trying to trade him... "LOL".

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And yet reportedly there were six teams who were interested in him... of whom the 'Phins (whom have a President whom is very familiar with Pennington) made the offer that Pennington decided to take. Imagine that!

I've stated before (I'd draw a picture for you to ease your understanding... but I can't) I have no illusions about the guy being great... but he's definitely an upgrade. Weak arm and all. I'm sure that the 'Phins improvement of their previous 1-15 season will be all the "proof" that you'll need to agree (though by no means "admit"... LOL!).

Also interestingly:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/traini...ory?id=3530356

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McNabb, in his interview with Mosley, said his knee and ankle injuries which limited his play the past two seasons may have been a blessing in disguise.

"[Last year] was a grind, but the injury actually helped acclimate me to being the type of quarterback that I've wanted to be. It's helped me in certain areas."

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I wonder exactly what he meant?

:)

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Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard

Also interestingly:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/traini...ory?id=3530356



I wonder exactly what he meant?

:)

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I read Morningwigs(?) comments on what he meant on the Eagles site. He said Mcnabb did an excellent job of going to his 4th and even 5th reads last year, which is very hard for any QB to do. Also, I believe he commented on how even without a knee, ankle or even an arm Mcnabb could throw a ball much further and harder than someone like, say, Pennington.

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And yet reportedly there were six teams who were interested in him... of whom the 'Phins (whom have a President whom is very familiar with Pennington) made the offer that Pennington decided to take. Imagine that!

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Those reports probably came from Penningtons agent. They always exaggerate interest to keep the teams that may really be interested from seeing how easy it would be to acquire the player. and i am sure a few teams had interest in him as a backup, as I said earlier he would probably be pretty good as a backup.

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Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard

No doubt.

But that's not what I was referencing. I was specifically referencing "because" or "in spite of"... Which isn't conclusive. Definitively.

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But the wins themselves are conclusive, definitive and absolute.

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I've stated before (I'd draw a picture for you to ease your understanding... but I can't) I have no illusions about the guy being great... but he's definitely an upgrade. Weak arm and all. I'm sure that the 'Phins improvement of their previous 1-15 season will be all the "proof" that you'll need to agree (though by no means "admit"... LOL!).

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yeah a 4-12 season would prove us all wrong.

As a 49ers fan, I can only watch with envy as other team's fans discuss QB 'problems'.

:( :p

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Originally Posted by md1198p

But the wins themselves are conclusive, definitive and absolute.

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Not for determining the quality of a QB.

Are you willing to state definitively that Trent Dilfer was the best QB of the 2001 season when th Ravens won the SB?

Go ahead...

The Ravens won in SPITE of Dilfer... not BECUASE of him.

Same thing with the Jets and Clemens (even though one still couldn't call the Jets a "winning" team).

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Originally Posted by md1198p

yeah a 4-12 season would prove us all wrong.

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By your own measuring standards it will apparently...

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Originally Posted by md1198p

I read Morningwigs(?) comments on what he meant on the Eagles site. He said Mcnabb did an excellent job of going to his 4th and even 5th reads last year, which is very hard for any QB to do.

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Odd... it almost sounds like McNabb has been having to rely on his scrambling for success in the past.

Take away that and he has to learn how to be a REAL pocket passer...

Deja Vu...

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Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard

Not for determining the quality of a QB.

Are you willing to state definitively that Trent Dilfer was the best QB of the 2001 season when th Ravens won the SB?

Go ahead...

The Ravens won in SPITE of Dilfer... not BECUASE of him.

Same thing with the Jets and Clemens (even though one still couldn't call the Jets a "winning" team).

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Dilfer would be a different case; straight up wins aren't as directly comparable across different teams. Dilfer was obviously not the best QB in the league that year, but he didn't need to be, as the defense was just sick. Their play style wasn't comparable to the more QB focused, offensive minded teams, so you can't just straight say that he had the wins so he's the best.

In the case of Clemons versus Pennington, they both ran the same system for the same team in the same year. Of course, they faced different opponents in different locations, but it is much more reasonable to compare wins of two guys in their situation than to compare Dilfer to QBs on completely different teams.

Regardless of who is better right now, I think everyone knows what you're going to get out of Pennington, and with all his injuries he's likely on the downside of his career. This is only Clemons' third year of playing, and having him work behind a vet like Favre can only mean good things. It's a choice between the backup who is nothing but a backup and the backup who still has upside.

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Originally Posted by monroeski

Dilfer would be a different case; straight up wins aren't as directly comparable across different teams. Dilfer was obviously not the best QB in the league that year, but he didn't need to be, as the defense was just sick.

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It was only the most basic premise that I was challenging... that wins by a QB are in no way indicative of their overall quality. As I've made mention before... it's the ultimate team game.

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In the case of Clemons versus Pennington, they both ran the same system for the same team in the same year. Of course, they faced different opponents in different locations, but it is much more reasonable to compare wins of two guys in their situation than to compare Dilfer to QBs on completely different teams.

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This is very true too!

"Wins" is way too simplistic (and inaccurate) to compare the two. The teams that they faced may have made all the difference in the world.

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Regardless of who is better right now, I think everyone knows what you're going to get out of Pennington, and with all his injuries he's likely on the downside of his career.

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I'd also agree with this. Which is why I made mention that I in no way considered Pennington the 'Phins QB of the future. Just a big upgrade... for now.

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This is only Clemons' third year of playing, and having him work behind a vet like Favre can only mean good things.

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One could say the exact same thing about working behind a vet like Pennington. And Pennington is also supposed to be a team leader as well... one would think a good teachewr for Clemons. Clemens does hold more future potential... I'll give him that.

But for now, the latest stats aren't making him look very good. Still, as a young QB I'd be patient with him. Many QBs take time to mature properly.

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It's a choice between the backup who is nothing but a backup and the backup who still has upside.

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For the mostpart, yes.

But part of a backup's job is just that... backing up the starter if the starter gets injured.

Should Favre get injured... a very real possibility considering his age, lack of knowledge of the offense, the quality of the Jets overall, and the lack of good blocking... then the backup gets inserted. In which case, Pennington would have represented a better chance at winning than Clemens... despite Clemen's awe inspiring 3-5 record last year.

As a Raider fan, I can only envy people as they talk about football with pride and not shame. But hey my team is still undefeated.

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Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff

As a 49ers fan, I can only watch with envy as other team's fans discuss QB 'problems'.

:( :p

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