Diablo 2 vs. Dungeon Siege

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Originally posted by -=kenshin=-
DS kicks the hell outta of D2 simply because of the environment it's amazing, sure u guys might think oh i can't go here or there cuz of map, but look at the environment compared that to d2 gimme a break d2 sux0rs big time in that dept with just its repititious stages, it looks so damn bland if u ask me *grant u it does randomize areas*

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Those "repetitious stages" gave thousands of people "repetitious enjoyment". At the time it was released, not many people found it to be bland. As for the environment, too bad DS's cam sucks so bad I can rarely get the view I want.

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d2 the skill levels grr i think that skill tree system is not bad, the ds skill leveling is much more balanced if u ask me...specially leveling up your character , i like how its ratioed out, makes the game more difficult*

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Ratioed out? You can level any area you want as high as you want in multi, explain to me how that is balanced? And you have to hack away at one monster at a time with a physical fighter, how is that balanced vs. a mage that can select different types of targetting spells?

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multiplayer, puh leeze, d2 has MASS lag issues from ppl warpin around even on lan its not funny and the invisible lightning enchanted guys that shoot off charged bolts when u hit'em haha that's funny, fortunately it doesn't happen in DS :)

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When I played D2 off a robust 1.5meg DSL network, I rarely had lag. Sometimes bnet would become unstable, but that was better than having to rely on someone else's connection for service. Complaining about the LEB's? Didn't you say above you liked a challenge?

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well my 2 cents are basically DS blows d2 away by a long margin just by sheer graphics and environments, d2 was good for its time but it defintely has been detrhroned in the action rpg dept by DS :D

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For coming out 2 years after D2, DS imho isn't very good. Morrowind and Neverwinter Nights will destroy it.

I love both D2 and DS. If you like one, you will probably like the other, but for some reason I like D2 much better.

Ohh and i kind of like there not being a skill tree for characters who use spells because the will find them throughout the game and you dont always know what to expect. But for a knight, all they do through the whole game of DS is hack and slash, no new skills to add to the excitement :rolleyes:

I vote for D2 over DS.

Since so many ppl expected DS as D2 killer and I was really excited and waited but I have to admit it is only a daydream. ;( I played DS and it is boring. I don't find any great background story like D2. DS battle scene is also somewhat weak.. When I hack or hit monsters I don't really feel I am in control of my character. The response or graphically something is missing on DS. maybe I expected too much from DS. D2 is now repetitve so I need to move on to any other RPG game..arg I can't find any :(

I'll say DS is nice try but I dunno why they took so long(>3 years of development). It would be rock if they published 2 years ago.

Heheheh ok Rush.. you got issues with Dungeon Siege.. Fair enough.

Simply, put. I do not agree with what you're saying.

I think Dungeon Siege is a very well thought out and put together game. It reaches so much further than Diablo technically that I really appreciate what the Gas Powered games has done. Sure it needs tweaking but HOW ELSE do you follow your character through a thickly wooded forest? Do you not have the forest like Diablo didn't? Do you always want to be looking down on the action from afar from exactly the same angle? Not me, I want to get as close to the action as possible. I really don't agree that DS is a return to Diablo 1 in terms of gameplay. I don't see the similarities. In DS you get a weapon, use it, get good with it. Diablo you have to choose what you want to be good with at the start and be forever stuck with that. You can only compare DS to Diablo in a limited way because they are similar TYPES of games. But you can't expect DS to PLAY LIKE Diablo, or your other favourite RPG game. Because it is not that game, it is DS. People these days are too quick to blast games instead of talk about what games do well. LOOK at what they tried to do with the camera tracking and you'll see it was a good idea.

Not sure what you were talking about with the skills development thing. The skill tree idea belongs to Blizzard now. In my view a skill tree in DS would be too much like DiabloII. Therefore the guys at Gas have done the right thing in giving us another way to develop skills, instead of copying Blizzards method.

Anyhow just my take.... I like DS over Diablo.

Those "repetitious stages" gave thousands of people "repetitious enjoyment". At the time it was released, not many people found it to be bland. As for the environment, too bad DS's cam sucks so bad I can rarely get the view I want.

the camera takes some time to get used too, the only complaint i have about the camera angle is when your backed up against a wall and it auto moves for you. other than that there's no complaint :D


Ratioed out? You can level any area you want as high as you want in multi, explain to me how that is balanced? And you have to hack away at one monster at a time with a physical fighter, how is that balanced vs. a mage that can select different types of targetting spells?

by ratio out is that say u have 10 str and 10 dex and 30 intel vs a guy who has 15/10/30, well the game is setup so that say if guy #2 has 900 mana, well guy #1 will have more mana simply because his other stats are lower...it compares your intel/str/dex to your other stats and figures out how much hp/mana points u shud have...hence why my friends intel being 50 and all his other stats are 50 only has a mana of 1200 compared to my intel of 50 BUT my other stats are lower and i have 1600 mana *i can assure u its not from items either, items might increase it a 100 or so but he has items too*


When I played D2 off a robust 1.5meg DSL network, I rarely had lag. Sometimes bnet would become unstable, but that was better than having to rely on someone else's connection for service. Complaining about the LEB's? Didn't you say above you liked a challenge?

LoL hardly a challenge when the computer doesn't play fair like that heheh. Its just annoying, i experience lag over a 10/100 connextion lan party at times and its frustrated me to the point that ah that's just LAMEEEEEE how they kill u like that :mad:


For coming out 2 years after D2, DS imho isn't very good. Morrowind and Neverwinter Nights will destroy it.

i dunno i've heard morrowind does not support multiplayer so i dont think i'd b interested in it, who knows... anyhow that's my 2 cents and reply *NOT FLAMMING ok*

Right now D2 is winning, the repetition in DS is really getting to me, I use the same spell and combat combinations against any enemy/group of enemies with great success. If the DS editor lives up to the hype and gets community involvement I see DS taking the lead.

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Originally posted by IRON-PAWW
Heheheh ok Rush.. you got issues with Dungeon Siege.. Fair enough.

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Damn straight I have issues with it, I already quit it's so boring. When some of my friends start modding it and scripting gameplay fixes, I'll start up again.

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Simply, put. I do not agree with what you're saying.

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That's fine, everyone can't agree on everything.

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I think Dungeon Siege is a very well thought out and put together game. It reaches so much further than Diablo technically that I really appreciate what the Gas Powered games has done.

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What are you basing this on? I'm sorry if I find that dense, but DS is just not a good game in ANY kind of technical sense! They ruined the 3D view by a) not graying out objects obstructing your view and b) not allowing a view to be "locked".
The targeting system is extremely weak- you have to physically click on a monster to attack it. Targeting becomes a problem when an area is crowded. Diablo 2 worked around these problems very well.
Movement system- DS brings nothing, NOTHING new to AI. It will relay movement instructions based on valid areas ONLY. Diablo 2 was much better in a technical sense of movement.

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Sure it needs tweaking but HOW ELSE do you follow your character through a thickly wooded forest? Do you not have the forest like Diablo didn't? Do you always want to be looking down on the action from afar from exactly the same angle? Not me, I want to get as close to the action as possible. I really don't agree that DS is a return to Diablo 1 in terms of gameplay. I don't see the similarities.

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You answered yourself there- give the player a choice of a "camera follow mode" where it auto-tracks your character. Even the years-old DarkStone, of which Dungeon Siege is supposed to be an advanced version, had this! Dungeon Siege is just horrible in a technical sense!
I agree with you on wanting to see all the angles, but I'd take a follow mode or even fixed viewpoint over DS's shoddy cam work any day.

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In DS you get a weapon, use it, get good with it. Diablo you have to choose what you want to be good with at the start and be forever stuck with that. You can only compare DS to Diablo in a limited way because they are similar TYPES of games. But you can't expect DS to PLAY LIKE Diablo, or your other favourite RPG game. Because it is not that game, it is DS.

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You don't get good with it, you just level your attributes associated with it more quickly. I guess that makes sense, but it isn't revolutionary by any stretch of the mind.
And now I will repeat myself from my last post- I am comparing the 2 games because the original poster ASKED us to do such! Am I the only one that understands that? I don't want DS to be a Diablo clone, I'm just pointing out DS's technical shortcomings in what IT'S trying to be.

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People these days are too quick to blast games instead of talk about what games do well. LOOK at what they tried to do with the camera tracking and you'll see it was a good idea.

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Whatever kind of idea it was, it was implented horribly. You'd think with 3 years to create the viewpoint, they would have done better. DS does graphics well, and it's blinding you to its shortcomings in every other area. That's a good thing for you I guess, since it allows you to enjoy the game to a fuller extent, but I couldn't see past them.

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Not sure what you were talking about with the skills development thing. The skill tree idea belongs to Blizzard now. In my view a skill tree in DS would be too much like DiabloII. Therefore the guys at Gas have done the right thing in giving us another way to develop skills, instead of copying Blizzards method.

Anyhow just my take.... I like DS over Diablo.

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No, it does not "belong" to Blizzard now. Blizzard came out with a wonderful improvement to H&S games, balancing physical fighters along with magic users. Other developers need to take note and start doing this. Maybe not to the extent that D2 does, or even the same way- but at least give us something! A sweep with a sword, allowing us to attack multiple enemies. An exploding arrow that damages enemies within its area of effect. Something is desperately needed to balance the classes out in terms of combat gameplay.

People that wear "graphics blinders" and find it satisfactory can very much enjoy this game, I'm sure. And that's fine for them. But every time I loaded up DS I enjoyed it less and less, and found myself looking ahead to NWN. :(

Well, I played D2 for about 6 months after it came out, but I've already deleted DS after spending $50 on it. So you already know what I think. But here is what I think point by point:

combat - D2 all the way. DS doesn't make you click anywhere, but this really takes you out of the game.

character/skill development - I'd say both games are different and both are pretty good in this area. DS's new ways is pretty cool, and each time you hit an enemy you gain some skill. However, it lacks any real skills other than spells, so D2 is a bit ahead in this area. DS also has the flaw of making it near impossible to build levels after around level 60. Enemies take forever to kill and hardly give any EXP. You can get a guy up to level 85 in the original D2 before it got tough to build levels. The level building in D2 is also a bit more balanced. You always build levels at a decent rate, a bit faster if you play in the right areas. DS, on the other hand, starts off really slow. But once you make it to Crystwind, you can just go to the area between Lane and Quillrabe and get up to level 40 in no time. Then it slows down a bit until around level 60 where it becomes annoyingly slow.

replayability - D2 for sure. DS got realy boring once I had a level 60-ish guy of each skill. Every new barb I created in D2 was as fun as the last, and the other characters were fun, as well. Not to mention searching for equipment in D2 is exciting when you find a rare, but the plain and plain magical equipment you find in shops in DS are usually as good or better than most of the rare and unique stuff.

multiuser gaming - DS wins here. I quit D2 because Battle.net started to have horrible lag, even on my T3+ connection. I often get < 10 ms pings while playing other games. D2 started off at around 20-30ms for months. Then it averaged around 300 ms with spikes that went over 10000ms (10 seconds!!!). Every time I try it again I have these same issues. The lag in DS depends on the person hosting it. I usually host on my reasonably fast machine with my low latency connection, and people usually complement me on the game
speed.

overall fun and addictiveness factors - D2, based on the reasons above. Leveling is more balanced and item hunting is MUCH more exciting. DS looks pretty and has a cool feel at first, but once you realize you are just following paths from one town to the next as a an excuse to kill things, you will wish you hadn't paid so much for so little.

Finally, another response actually aimed toward the original poster. Unbiased, well thought-out, and all very valid points. Kudos Zoma.

D2-LOD owns DS absolutely no question.

Would I pay $80 again for D2&LOD? you betcha!
Would I pay $40 for DS? nope... after playing
the Demo to death, I'm waiting to get it on eGay
for $20 once all the kiddies are sick of it.

(it's already in the CostCo clearance for $40)

DS Graphics look sweet on my 10000+3dMark2001 rig,

I'm going to DL that JK2 demo on Friday.
If it's a sweet as everyone says, maybe
I'll snap up one of those as well.

BTW; if you think DS graphics are so much better
than D2, you should play D2 at 600x800 resolution.
No flying camara pans, but the Graphics still hold
up very well.

ok Rush you win, I'm not gonna top a post like that.

Again though, you are killing DS for what it does badly. That seems to have tainted your views of what it does well.

The well thought out part. Having just enough disappear without killing the whole scene. How do you follow your characters through a forst without losing them? You make the trees disappear, but not too many. Having the rooves and bridged disappear so you can still see your character is a good idea which I belive works well. It doesn't always work in DS granted, but the concept is good.

The sheer array of monsters and environments is very good and keeps your interest in the game high. Too many games just have simple environments and a few models with different skins.

You have a wealth of objects to pick up and compare with what you already have. And each object also has it's own model, not just a reskin of another model.

GamePlay aspects. At various Times in DS you are forced to split your party and so you need to decide on how to do this. GAS has injected another level of gameplay into DS by doing this. You also need to mess around with the abilities of your party members to find a good balance. Ranged, magic, Melee etc.

Actually here's a point. In DS YOU control the camera. I find that I'm only occasionally peeved by where the camera ends up. So perhaps the shoddy camera work might have something to do with the users ability to control it. It IS difficult to get used to and requires practice and forethought. But it can be done. And this is the freedom that Gas Games wanted to put into the game. YOU control how the action is viewed and followed. You can decide which character the camera follows. I always have it following one of my Melee characters as they are always right up with the fighting. If I want a distanced view I can select an archer which will take me away from the action a bit. Set your zoom to the scroll wheel on your mouse and you have instant close up or zoomed out views from any angle you choose. In fact as I learn more about the techniques to use, I find that the camera issues bother me less and less. But the onus is on YOU to make the camera work, which it WILL do according to how good you are with it. It's not going to instantly know where you want it to be. YOU have to tell it. So I really don't think the implementation of the camera is all that bad in DS.

The sound is very good, but all too often is forgotten.

You mentioned attacking multiple enemies. You can do this in DS. But you do it by having multiple people in your party. 2 or 3 attacking one enemy and some others elsewhere. Or select them all and click on one enemy. Each character you develop has its own attributed which change the way you play the game. A mage for instance must run away a lot at the beginning, but not so much as the game gets going. But I don't find any of the character classes to be out of balance with the others as you suggest.

Oh and the fact that you can have a Mule! Brilliant! Now you can stash a HEAP of potions and gear onto the mule and cash in big time when you find a dealer. The mule is not stupid either. When you get into trouble the mule will distance itself from the fighting to stay out of the way.

There is more to like about DS, I find it hard to bag the game as you do. But I respect your viewpoint. Perhaps we will just agree to disagree. My apologies for not being on topic. But I think that DS is bagged for all the wrong reasons.

Some good points there Iron, especially about the environments. DS certainly does this well.
But I still vehemently disagree on the camera view issue- this is not a user-controlled feature. The way the views are programmed interferes with a user's ability to scroll with the game at all times- play DarkStone for a taste of what I'm talking about, the cam scrolling/zooming does not take over and mess up angles. It even has a tracking mode, which allows the cam view to follow you in an over-the-shoulder view... man that would be great in DS. And anything opaque in DS needs to be at least somewhat faded when obstructing views in your immediate vicinity (DarkStone and D2 both did this).
Heh, of course I use the scroll button to zoom, if I didn't DS would be unplayable. ;)
You referred to the fact that the camera doesn't know exactly where you want it to be- you are absolutely correct. And that is a major problem... it still tries to make adjustments for you, and for me at least they are mostly incorrect. :( But YMMV.

Oh, and you make a valid point that the party can attack different enemies- but I did mean a single character being able to physically attack more than one enemy (e.g. playing solo).

They both suck. both are hacked to hell, stupid cheaters, DS is worse though, the game is fun, but the way they made everything else sucks, game is choppy, save file is right in documents folder(morons), also multiplayer gets real laggy, and you cant even see your damn ping ffs

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Originally posted by Quaduce
They both suck. both are hacked to hell, stupid cheaters, DS is worse though, the game is fun, but the way they made everything else sucks, game is choppy, save file is right in documents folder(morons), also multiplayer gets real laggy, and you cant even see your damn ping ffs

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lol try single player next time.

Or find a good group of people and play IP (or at least passworded) games. :cool: