Question - EQII

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Originally posted by Nightlord
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you, like many other people, are making the mistake of interchanging 'pvping' with 'pking'.

pking is NOT what made UO so great.. stupid idiots running around killing helpless newbies in graveyards did NOTHING but make people quit.

pking != pvping. i was into the latter. if you don't know the difference, maybe YOU are the one that needs to learn a few things.

also, the pvp side didn't suddenly empty out because of the felucca/trammel garbage.. it started WAY before that. when OSI decided to completely nerf pre-casting, it was such an enormous blow that many pvp'ers threatened to quit right then and there (and some did). the introduction of felucca and trammel only added fuel to the fire. i quit UO shortly after the facet system was put in place.

what made UO so great was the gameplay.. there were no treadmills, no grinds, no hotbars, no brainless "stand there and hit hotkeys until the monster/player dies". UO was a game that took skill, knowledge, and reflexes to play successfully.. their pvp system was (and is to this day to a lesser extent) second to none - which was a huge thing for me cause i'm into PVP in any game i play (read PVP, not pking). it's one of the only MMORPG's that actually lives up to the last letter in that acronym (GAME).

imho

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In UO you had to grind your skills just as much as any other role-playing game.

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grinds in UO and grinds in EQ/EQ clones are two very different things.

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as a game developer, I'm NOT going to sink my time, money, and resources into a game to make those few l33t d00ds happy and ending up with a 4K subscriber base game (if I'm lucky). No, I'm going to create a game that let's me sit at over 350,000 for next 5 years putting some real money in my pocket

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oh, i guess that's why UO is the longest-lasting MMORPG to this day with a very comfortable current player base of roughly 200,000+ players (and is going on 8 years now).

^^^ No, I understand perfectly. The point is that you CAN'T have a PvP game without the PKing. Thus, the reason why the masses don't like open PvP. The griefers and l33t d00ds exist... period. So therefore PvP DOES = PKing. UO even tried to implement a Karma/noteriety system to cut down on the griefing... did it work? Nope. And like you said, it lost them a LOT of players. Open PvP just equates to PKing like open-combat = the griefer issues we saw in EQ- thus the invention of instancing. (Which, btw, is also considered very Carebear... and yet is helping keep COH popular despite the lack of content.)

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So therefore PvP DOES = PKing.

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nope~

pking is pvp, but pvp is not necessarily pking.. especially not when taken in the light that you're attempting to shine over it.

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Originally posted by asmox
popular != better
popular = more accessible to the masses (generally a bad thing when it comes to quality)

that's why you see things like EQ and FFXI at the top, subscription-wise.. they aren't necessarily better games, just easier to get into and be really good at.

games like EQ, all you need is time and you can be godlike.. games like UO, you aren't going anywhere without actual skill.

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You'll never win the argument that UO is better.....simply cause it's a fricken game! Which is 'better?' You can post your criteria and I can post mine. It is, in the end, an indeterminable argument. Gamers sometimes take themselves too seriously.....just like the deep wannabee rock critics arguing about the best band in the past decade. I remember a EQ hunting group I was in, during a lull in the battle, and two or three people who had played UO said EQ blew it away. Whatever.

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You'll never win the argument that UO is better.....simply cause it's a fricken game! Which is 'better?' You can post your criteria and I can post mine. It is, in the end, an indeterminable argument. Gamers sometimes take themselves too seriously.....just like the deep wannabee rock critics arguing about the best band in the past decade. I remember a EQ hunting group I was in, during a lull in the battle, and two or three people who had played UO said EQ blew it away. Whatever.

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relax, chief.

everything i say is purely imho. everybody's entitled to theirs.

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Originally posted by asmox
nope~

pking is pvp, but pvp is not necessarily pking.. especially not when taken in the light that you're attempting to shine over it.

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PVP and PK are 2 different things. PVP does not necessarily mean player death. 2 players may fight each other but stop once they reach a certain fraction of their health (to avoid death penalties). While PK ensures death, because it's... well, player killing.

^^^ We were discussion PvP as was done in UO. DAOC has PvP, but it's NOT ala Ultima Online, it's concentual. You choose to go forth and take part on a whim. In UO, it was open-PvP, as in: PvP anytime, anywhere.

In UO you didn't really have the "class" imbalance that you have in games like DAOC because the game mechanic determined that everyone can be EXACTLY the same as everyone else- 100 Magery, 100 Magic, ect. And if you threw a Fireball, it was the same Fireball everyone else was throwing. In that, I think they had it right. Put the time and effort into your character and you will be best at exactly what skills you want to be best at. Arg, that's a different topic.

Anyhow, yes there are different forms of PvP... I thought that was pretty well self-explanitory so I stopped specifying OPEN PvP, ala UO. As to the point about "stopping before Death" that's just Dueling, which to me is no different than any other concentual PvP like what's available in DAOC. You can go take part in the PvP wars, or sit in your own realm and "Duel" other people... and being able to do that in no way, shape, or form comes even close to being what UO was.

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Originally posted by icecube_of_death
PVP and PK are 2 different things. PVP does not necessarily mean player death. 2 players may fight each other but stop once they reach a certain fraction of their health (to avoid death penalties). While PK ensures death, because it's... well, player killing.

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while sorta true, that isn't what i meant at all.

pking generally refers to preying on helpless newblings and overall griefing clueless victims at every turn. pvping refers to actual player vs player COMBAT (the lesser the skill gap between players, the better/more fun), not player vs newbling domination.

while the former can be amusing at times, i prefer the latter.. and uo did it best. imho.

oh edit: nightlord, considering the subject matter of your posts.. i can only think that you played uo for a total of 2 months before quitting. your apparent knowledge is extremely limited.

The PvP in UO was fine. The numerous hacks and exploits were not.

PvP is fine when everyone is playing by the same rules. It ruins the game when some can cheat.

Cheating ruined UO.

Well anyway, I played both UO and EQ... Actually I played UO for a few weeks and EQ for 2 years :P. I do agree that EQ is better. I had some of my greatest gaming moments playing EQ. Ahhh those were good times :D.

Also I think EQII is going to be pretty cool. I preordered it a few days ago and got the starter kit. The movie on the cd looks awesome. Also the characters look very good, nice detail. I like how they are bringing in player housing too. Man the graphics look great too.

I am definatily going to give EQII a try.

I liked EQ's PVP setup. You have PVP arena's anyone in them is fair game. You have duels, which weren't all that great and were used mainly for guild events and such. Then you had guild wars, which I liked the best. There were guilds that were just dedicated to warring with another associated guild. Anyone in the opposing guild was fair game and no consent was needed. There was nothing more satisfying being part of a mid range party planning an ambush for a higher lvl player and pulling it off. God those were the days.

While I understand the point the UO guys are trying to make. An open PVP system just isn't practical, there's too many jerks out there that just get their jollies killing lowbies.

I loved EQ back in the day but just didn't have the time to level with my online friends. I think the best times were had when we were very evenly matched with a mob and there was always real danger of us all dying. That and exploring a new area where you never knew what you were going to run into :)

I'm down to one SWG account and no CoH account now in preperation for EQII.

I'll be playing Battlefront while I wait.

I too preordered EQII last week :D