Kickstarter Game Thread

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Originally Posted by taggart6

A preorder doesn't say you will get a game or that the game will be good. It merely reserves a copy of a game you hope will be good and at the least expect completed. If i pre-order a game for a dev that goes under I figure I'll have just as much a problem getting my money back as kickstarter.

that said, I have no doubt that kickstarter games will be produced. the only issue will be how crappy the game is. But hey, that's part of thr risk.

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If you preorder a game and the publisher goes under, then it doesn't matter since the preorder is not through the publisher (except on Origin or something.) I've never heard of someone not getting their game or a preorder refund when a preorder goes awry. Ima has said there have been numerous failed projects on kickstarter though, so it does happen. I can't say anything to your trust in the kickstarter program, that is something each person will need to decide for themselves.

A preorder is an agreement to secure delivery, if it isn't fulfilled the company is required to refund the money. Kickstarter is an investment with no guarantee of product delivery. I think that is an important distinction.

FWIW, here are some excerpts from the TOS:

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Company shall not be liable for any failure to perform its obligations hereunder where such failure results from any cause beyond Company’s reasonable control

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Company may terminate your access to all or any part of the Service at any time, with or without cause, with or without notice, effective immediately, which may result in the forfeiture and destruction of all information associated with your membership. If you wish to terminate your account, you may do so by following the instructions on the Site. Any fees paid hereunder are non-refundable.

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I'm not saying anyone will get screwed, just to be informed about what could possibly happen in the future.

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Originally Posted by Timman_24

If you preorder a game and the publisher goes under, then it doesn't matter since the preorder is not through the publisher (except on Origin or something.) I've never heard of someone not getting their game or a preorder refund when a preorder goes awry. Ima has said there have been numerous failed projects on kickstarter though, so it does happen. I can't say anything to your trust in the kickstarter program, that is something each person will need to decide for themselves.

A preorder is an agreement to secure delivery, if it isn't fulfilled the company is required to refund the money. Kickstarter is an investment with no guarantee of product delivery. I think that is an important distinction.

FWIW, here are some excerpts from the TOS:





I'm not saying anyone will get screwed, just to be informed about what could possibly happen in the future.

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I don't see kick-starter game devs not releasing something should they encounter problems. My expectation is that at the very least they would just send out the alpha or beta version and call it the final to shut people up.

The industry does it so why can't indie devs as well? Nothing in the terms of service says the game has to be any good.

Saw this which looks interesting. I'm not a huge fan of this kinda of strategy combat but I figure others might be:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012...s-kickstarter/

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Originally Posted by taggart6

Saw this which looks interesting. I'm not a huge fan of this kinda of strategy combat but I figure others might be:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012...s-kickstarter/

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That looks absolutely amazing.

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Originally Posted by taggart6

I don't see kick-starter game devs not releasing something should they encounter problems. My expectation is that at the very least they would just send out the alpha or beta version and call it the final to shut people up.

The industry does it so why can't indie devs as well? Nothing in the terms of service says the game has to be any good.

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What has happened a few times already—although not for a game—is that someone raises money and blows through it before the product reaches production, and then either asks for more money or goes silent. Kickstarter takes 5%. Amazon takes another 3-5% for credit card processing.

The only reason Kickstarter exists is because current SEC rules prohibit you from crowdsourcing investment capital. Only people with over $1MM in liquidity are technically allowed to invest in a company, and a company can not have more than 500 shareholders and remain private. It's also technically illegal to discuss "raising money" if you are a private company.

Kickstarter is just a legal loophole. It allows you to raise money as if it were some kind of single-source donation. If you are posting a project you are not obligated to deliver anything at all. Backing a project is the same as being an investor with 100% downside potential and little, if any, upside. It's basically like hitting the PayPal "Donate" button.

If the JOBS Act passes as is, Kickstarter will probably disappear or change quite drastically. The JOBS Act will change a lot of the SEC funding rules for small companies. The JOBS Act could actually completely change small business in America. It's a shame it doesn't get much attention. The bill is kind of broken, but there's some good stuff in there about funding for small companies.

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Originally Posted by ImaNihilist

What has happened a few times already—although not for a game—is that someone raises money and blows through it before the product reaches production, and then either asks for more money or goes silent. Kickstarter takes 5%. Amazon takes another 3-5% for credit card processing.

The only reason Kickstarter exists is because current SEC rules prohibit you from crowdsourcing investment capital. Only people with over $1MM in liquidity are technically allowed to invest in a company, and a company can not have more than 500 shareholders and remain private. It's also technically illegal to discuss "raising money" if you are a private company.

Kickstarter is just a legal loophole. It allows you to raise money as if it were some kind of single-source donation. If you are posting a project you are not obligated to deliver anything at all. Backing a project is the same as being an investor with 100% downside potential and little, if any, upside. It's basically like hitting the PayPal "Donate" button.

If the JOBS Act passes as is, Kickstarter will probably disappear or change quite drastically. The JOBS Act will change a lot of the SEC funding rules for small companies. The JOBS Act could actually completely change small business in America. It's a shame it doesn't get much attention. The bill is kind of broken, but there's some good stuff in there about funding for small companies.

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Going from an idea to an actual physical good is crazy expensive now a days. An hour on a C&C machine is easily a few grand if you consider time to develop the 3d model, time to rent the machine, and materials.

I feel less concerned with something like an indie video game or a board game that is all ready in the printed demo play testing phase. Honestly, a 100 hours of programming is really about 50 which is the price of a few liters of mountain dew and a few weeks worth of Taco Bell burritos. Indie devs basically run on big dreams and fast food.

Printing costs for board games can get costly but if they are in the play testing with a printed design concept then I feel more at ease that they can meet demand. Bulk printing is done in orders so you typically know what your printing run will cost pretty early on.

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Originally Posted by taggart6

Going from an idea to an actual physical good is crazy expensive now a days. An hour on a C&C machine is easily a few grand if you consider time to develop the 3d model, time to rent the machine, and materials.

I feel less concerned with something like an indie video game or a board game that is all ready in the printed demo play testing phase. Honestly, a 100 hours of programming is really about 50 which is the price of a few liters of mountain dew and a few weeks worth of Taco Bell burritos. Indie devs basically run on big dreams and fast food.

Printing costs for board games can get costly but if they are in the play testing with a printed design concept then I feel more at ease that they can meet demand. Bulk printing is done in orders so you typically know what your printing run will cost pretty early on.

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Software can cost thousands. Visual Studio (used for XNA games) MSDN subscription can be $3000+ with a $1500+ annual renewal. Adobe CS5 will cost $1,899. The music will need to be composed or licensed. I doubt you will find many composers that will work for minimum wage, plus the software expense that goes with that. Most people mess around with cracked versions, but they will need to go legit when making a real product.

Then there is housing/insurance/food etc that are simply the basics for living. Most indie games are 2-10 people. Unless they are all living together, that can add up quickly. They may use the money to purchase newer hardware as well, that can be several thousand.

The costs are much more than a bag of fast food.

Most of the costs associated with games that have no physics aren't programming. Most of the budget goes to asset creation.

Going over budget is really easy. You can't wait around for the VO work, so the guys start drawing. The VO comes in and it's a TOTAL mismatch with the art. Now you've got to do the VO all over again.

Good art directors help, but these kind of things are inevitable. If you are crowdfunding it because you couldn't get funded any other way—because you didn't have the experience necessary for someone to take a chance on you—chances are you are going to mess up a lot.

I'm not talking about Double Fine. They know their stuff. I'm talking about most of the others.

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Originally Posted by Timman_24

Software can cost thousands. Visual Studio (used for XNA games) MSDN subscription can be $3000+ with a $1500+ annual renewal. Adobe CS5 will cost $1,899. The music will need to be composed or licensed. I doubt you will find many composers that will work for minimum wage, plus the software expense that goes with that. Most people mess around with cracked versions, but they will need to go legit when making a real product.

Then there is housing/insurance/food etc that are simply the basics for living. Most indie games are 2-10 people. Unless they are all living together, that can add up quickly. They may use the money to purchase newer hardware as well, that can be several thousand.

The costs are much more than a bag of fast food.

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Depends on the development studio but I agree its not always cheap. However not all indie devs use XNA and I would imagine it ultimately depends on your resources at hand. If they currently go to a programing school (min had game dev courses) or work for a larger dev group chances are they already access to a development suite. However whether they can use them for personal development is a very grey area or simply a no-no.

Housing costs are needed for any one that wants a home and not unique to programers. I would assume that as with most start-ups, some of the group is a mix of side jobs and steady employment to help fund efforts.

I no way am I saying its cheap. My comment about tacos was in jest. I figure most would have gotten that.

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Originally Posted by ImaNihilist

Most of the costs associated with games that have no physics aren't programming. Most of the budget goes to asset creation.

Going over budget is really easy. You can't wait around for the VO work, so the guys start drawing. The VO comes in and it's a TOTAL mismatch with the art. Now you've got to do the VO all over again.

Good art directors help, but these kind of things are inevitable. If you are crowdfunding it because you couldn't get funded any other way—because you didn't have the experience necessary for someone to take a chance on you—chances are you are going to mess up a lot.

I'm not talking about Double Fine. They know their stuff. I'm talking about most of the others.

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FTL is a 2 man operation. From their video, they want to use part of their funds to pay off there artist who has worked for free. I've heard similar things from other really small dev teams. People will work for free or very low pay in returns for potential profits/shares and experience. I figure it was similar to most startups.

A cousin of mine is graphics artist. She does work for a variety of ad based things at a low price until she gets established and command a higher price. Company logos, marketing material and etc. She workd for a firm in Austin but she's stil green and doing things on the side to build experience. Same goes for a old college friend of mine that now works for a special effect group for The Asylum film studio. She still does low cost commission work on the side to help build her reputation. She's been at it maybe 4 years or so and it just happy to have a steady paycheck.

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Originally Posted by taggart6

Depends on the development studio but I agree its not always cheap. However not all indie devs use XNA and I would imagine it ultimately depends on your resources at hand. If they currently go to a programing school (min had game dev courses) or work for a larger dev group chances are they already access to a development suite. However whether they can use them for personal development is a very grey area or simply a no-no.

Housing costs are needed for any one that wants a home and not unique to programers. I would assume that as with most start-ups, some of the group is a mix of side jobs and steady employment to help fund efforts.

I no way am I saying its cheap. My comment about tacos was in jest. I figure most would have gotten that.

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Sure housing and such is a general cost, but it would be satisfied other ways if they chose a different career path. Nonetheless, the kickstarter money will be partially used simply to live to allow the developers to work on the project.

My school is in the MSDNAA program and it specifically states that the software may not be used for commercial purposes. If it is an educational license, then it is flat-out a no-no. As for development communities, I'm not too familiar with those but licensing fees or membership dues to the community must apply somehow due to how the licenses are sold via the software developer.

I assume they could "get by" with open source stuff for very low end games (text adventures), but I believe they would end up spending four times more time troubleshooting, debugging, and creating low level code. My limited exposure to Visual Studio gave me a huge appreciation for the development suite MS has created especially how modular it is. Coding a game from C or some equivalent is out of the scope of most programmers, especially a graphical game.

As for special cases, Terreria was made in 6 months with only two guys. They used XNA, so they must have purchased a license. During an interview, I heard that a lot of their time was spent doing PR. Eventually, one of the guys broke off and dedicated himself to only doing PR and maintaining the website.

There is that new Indie Documentary touring the US right now. I'd like to see it as it shows some behind the scenes stuff about indie development that would be interesting.

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Originally Posted by Timman_24

Sure housing and such is a general cost, but it would be satisfied other ways if they chose a different career path. Nonetheless, the kickstarter money will be partially used simply to live to allow the developers to work on the project.

My school is in the MSDNAA program and it specifically states that the software may not be used for commercial purposes. If it is an educational license, then it is flat-out a no-no. As for development communities, I'm not too familiar with those but licensing fees or membership dues to the community must apply somehow due to how the licenses are sold via the software developer.

I assume they could "get by" with open source stuff for very low end games (text adventures), but I believe they would end up spending four times more time troubleshooting, debugging, and creating low level code. My limited exposure to Visual Studio gave me a huge appreciation for the development suite MS has created especially how modular it is. Coding a game from C or some equivalent is out of the scope of most programmers, especially a graphical game.

As for special cases, Terreria was made in 6 months with only two guys. They used XNA, so they must have purchased a license. During an interview, I heard that a lot of their time was spent doing PR. Eventually, one of the guys broke off and dedicated himself to only doing PR and maintaining the website.

There is that new Indie Documentary touring the US right now. I'd like to see it as it shows some behind the scenes stuff about indie development that would be interesting.

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2 high-school friends of mine work in game development. One is at Id doing level design and the other is at EA doing Menu development. I've heard its not uncommon for workers to use company tools to help create an alpha/ proof of concept build of their own game design. Its risky if you get caught, but most guys do it in their spare time at home. Very few ever really go anywhere but some do end up leaving if they get some interest while shopping it around. Most are done for shits and giggles around the office.

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Originally Posted by taggart6

2 high-school friends of mine work in game development. One is at Id doing level design and the other is at EA doing Menu development. I've heard its not uncommon for workers to use company tools to help create an alpha/ proof of concept build of their own game design. Its risky if you get caught, but most guys do it in their spare time at home. Very few ever really go anywhere but some do end up leaving if they get some interest while shopping it around. Most are done for shits and giggles around the office.

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Sure, I've used educational licenses for personal use before. However, they will have to buy a license by the time the game comes out, so it is included in their budget. They can design all they want, but when the project becomes commercial, they better have a license on hand. :D

Neat rurn based strategy lego themed mech combat game. you actually build the units with legos.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...o-rapid-attack

Legos sold separately, although I'm sure some Lego executive is probably keeping close tabs on this in case it gets popular.

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Originally Posted by taggart6

Neat rurn based strategy lego themed mech combat game. you actually build the units with legos.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...o-rapid-attack

Legos sold separately, although I'm sure some Lego executive is probably keeping close tabs on this in case it gets popular.

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Okay goddammit, you've got me on this one. That is so awesome. :eek::D