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Can I trust this company?
I saw this receiver, and it says originally $800. Is this too good to be true? Anyone had any experiences buying from this place? Should I be worried about buying refurbished? They offer a 2-year warranty, would that be a good choice if I did decide to buy from them? Sorry for all the questions, but I'd like any opinions.
It *is* refurbished... I mean, if you're willing to opt and say it most likely isn't a lemon, go for it.
I'd personally go with a technics, like I said.
They're great bang for the buck. :)
The warranty would make me sleep easier, though... In the event that you do get it. :)
That's good advise...if you shop carefully $400 could get you a really nice HT set that would beat the tar out of any PC speaker set.Quote:
Originally posted by pbirkett
Personally, if I were you, I would go into the second hand market to look for Home Cinema amps. You'll find some good bargains there.
My mate got a respectable Kenwood amp for about $180, that kicks out 90wpc and has Dolby Digital DTS capabilities. Then, you could go for a cheapish (again, look second hand) speaker sets. You could probably find a decent speaker set, 2nd hand for about $200 - $300.
OK, that little lot will never set the world on fire in terms of sound quality, but, IMO it will sound a whole lot better than ANY PC speaker setup out there. My mates system sounds very impressive for the money. OK, you will have to spend a bit on interconnects too, but all in all, not much more money than a PM5.1 setup, and with probably significantly better sound for the money.
Paul
Quote:
"The problem with using a home theatre system for your computer is that you can't keep the receiver on all the time, otherwise it'll overheat and turn itself off, or get damaged..."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That is not correct, I have over 3800watts worth of amplifcation in my home theater and all my amps have been on virtually 24/7 for the last several years. Turning equipment on and off wears this kind of equipment out , furthmore leaving them on all of the time keeps them warmed up and sounding their best IMO.
Many companies suggest that you don't leave your receiver on for over 18 hours at a time, because the transistors may overheat. I tried doing what you're suggesting and my receiver turned itself off from over heating before.
As all solid state amps, they'll wear out quicker the more you turn them on and off. However, you'll burn them out if you keep them on 24/7. It's not suggested, it's not a subjective thing. It's the way the equipment works. Also, if you have 3800 watts, you're obviously not running a receiver, and more than likely using seperate amps accompanied with preamps. That is *not* what he's doing.
He's going to buy a regular home theatre receiver.
Acually I use a receiver and have external amps connected to the preouts...my receiver been on for almost 2 years straight.Quote:
Originally posted by CrawlingEye
Many companies suggest that you don't leave your receiver on for over 18 hours at a time, because the transistors may overheat. I tried doing what you're suggesting and my receiver turned itself off from over heating before.
As all solid state amps, they'll wear out quicker the more you turn them on and off. However, you'll burn them out if you keep them on 24/7. It's not suggested, it's not a subjective thing. It's the way the equipment works. Also, if you have 3800 watts, you're obviously not running a receiver, and more than likely using seperate amps accompanied with preamps. That is *not* what he's doing.
He's going to buy a regular home theatre receiver.
Quote:
"Many companies suggest that you don't leave your receiver on for over 18 hours at a time"
>>>>>>>>>
Name one and show me please.
Quote:
"I tried doing what you're suggesting and my receiver turned itself off from over heating before."
Did you have the amp cranked up full blast? Recievers just don't shut themselves off unless they have clipping protection circuitry built in..and this does not kick in unless you are clipping the amp because it cannot handle the load you are asking it to do. So if its just on , in other words in idle then its impossible for it to overheat unless you had it enclosed in a box or something where it cannot get any air.
Your receiver was or is defective or you are not giving it any air.
No, I never turn my volume past 2/4. That's not even likely that it ever gets that high. Usually it's at about 2/5 or so.
The technics are suggested to not run over 18 hours, it's stated in my owners manual, I'll dig it up for you, take a digital camera shot of the page. Will that make you sleep better? ;)
You've yet to realize that it may last for 2 years while being on 24/7, but 2 years isn't a very long time. Transistors procure a good deal of heat. After a while, the heat only accumulates and increases.
Most receivers have little more than a vent in the top for heat to escape. It's not cerebral to keep them on that long.
Clipping is only obvious. Your poweramp is more likely to clip when the transistors are that hot. You can look at the technics website for some info. I'm sure there's something about it on the jbl website as well. If you'd rather me try to find my owner's manual, I will.
If you'd rather me do neither, your argument's void nor are you doing anything more than adding sound. If you're wasting my time, just tell me, because I don't care to try and talk sense into the selectively ignorant. :rolleyes:
What I'm suprised no one has asked is, how big is the room you want to put this stuff in? Like ST=Z said, PC speakers tend to sound pretty loud up close but drop off fast. I have Klipsch 4.1's running from my SB Live and it sounds pretty nice. If i want to turn it up, they are Fing loud! I was going full blast once while it was just my mom and I in the house... We were downstairs and it was pretty good. My grandma said she heard them when she pulled up the driveway. i'm on the far side of the house, it's decent size house to get through, then it would have to go ever the lawn and into her car. That's loud. If you get the Klipsch 5.1 and something Like the ProMedia DD-5.1 which is a preamp DSP unit built for the KPM line you will be very impressed with what PC speakers can do. However, that's $570 right there. You could get a pretty OK home theater setup for that. I've had my speakers in a large room (my friend's open basement, one big room.) and we had the speakers about as far apart as we could put them with my cables (10' fronts and 14' rears) and we had an LCD progector and that was a nice HT setup if you ask me. We watched some movies off my computer and it was great. We couldn't put it loud either becuase it was night time and his parents were trying to sleep... But we could have woken up the neighbors.
In all honesty, I would just get a high quality set of computer speakers. I own the Klipsch 4.1 and am very satisfied with them. In fact, I find that the Klipsch speakers for the PC are comparable to HT speakers in the same price range.
In order to get decent HT equipment you really need to exceed your price range by an order of magnitude. You might be able to get a good bargain on a used set but since you don't know much about HT I wouldn't recommend that you do this. The problem being that you wouldn't know if you were getting quality components or not or if you were paying fair market value (plus the risk of purchasing something that doesn't work the way it should).
P.S. If you do go the HT route, don't get too obsessed about numbers. The most misleading term is often the WPC. There is no real standard way of measuring this and many manufacturers will intentionally mislead you. See if you can get a low end Denon, Onkyo, Marantz, etc. receiver in your price range. I think the lowest model Denon is the 1602? It only does something like 75 WPC but I would still rather own it than a 100 WPC reciever from a lesser company. Besides, in your price range you don't need that much power.
Hey aeflux66, how can you tell what shipment your KPM 5.1's are (J, M, etc.)? I recieved mine from newegg a few days ago and would love to find out what's up, if anything.
In my endeavours I am finding myself starting to agree with Pheathon. I have a friend that works at Best buy so I get everything through him (those of you that frequent the Audio/Sound section might remember my post for a price on PM5.1 that was insanely low). But I bought the KLH reciever and some KLH floor standing speakers, and lets just say its not that great of an idea, just because the savings (even w/o the discount) for the KLH and others isnt that great. I am going to return that stuff and invest in something that is a little more solid as far as just the reciever and front Mains (besides KLH only offers 90 days on the Reciever but 5 years on the speakers). JDC, I would by fairly well when it comes to the Electronic for HT, swallow your pride spend $300 on a reciever, buy functional second hand speakers then do from there. There is always an Audiophile that is looking to ditch some really good speakers for a really low price.
And as for that Pioneer reciever at refurbdepot, I wouldnt go that route personally, although the only real bad part about refurbished items is the name, that particular one if you read down the spec list you would see that it has 5 unpowered outs (well 6 if you count unpowered low frequncy), which means that you would also have to buy amps to go with it (which means spending more money) and even on a refurb at 70% savings is questionable. If you buy from there I wouldnt go much higer then a 50% and always get extended warranties in situations like that. Sometimes unfortunately they only cure symptoms and not diseases, and you want to be well protected.
*struggles to place two massive copper Lincolns on the table*
my two cents.
The shipment model is on the back of the sub in the lower left corner. The latest shipment is "M" I believe.Quote:
Originally posted by MrSalty
Hey aeflux66, how can you tell what shipment your KPM 5.1's are (J, M, etc.)? I recieved mine from newegg a few days ago and would love to find out what's up, if anything.
Example: ##-M-#######-X
I got mine from newegg about a month ago, M shipment.
P.S. Cool site... :cool:
On the subject of leaving components "on", there is no clear right answer. A little anecdotal evidence though, my grandfather is somewhat of an eccentric millionare, one of his firm beliefs is always keeping equipment on. He never turns anything off, vcr, dvd, reciever, satelllite TV box etc etc, you walk in to his beach house in mexico and everythings "on" and has been on year round. He's been doing this for like 20 years and all of his original high end Sony equipment works great (back in the 80's when the cool remote was a large heavy wedge of brushed steel). Now this still doesnt convince me its good for your equipment, I mean most "on" theory people only leave it "on" for daily use, but this guy takes it to the extreme in 5 different houses and never seemes to have any trouble. So maybe I should be convinced, I dont know.
Your equipment should not overheat just because its left on, that doesnt make any sense to me.
Dont buy referbrished, baaad idea, you are really asking for trouble with the unit, you are much better off buying used from someone, the savings are more substantial and the persons equipment is likely very good, while refirbrished by definition your virtually guarenteed your buying a lemon. I wouldnt buy from Best buy Circuit City or the Wiz either, they all have ridiculous markup, take 2 minutes and find a reputable online dealer it will be much cheaper. Better yet buy used, I've dropped the links countless times.
I have had my amp at home turned on for many months, and it doesnt overheat. In my opinion, if an amplifier overheats when left on, then it surely is faulty. I have never come across any amplifier yet that overheats that wasnt faulty. Maybe it just needs some air.
A refurbished product may be alright. Out of all sound equipment that you can buy second hand, amplifiers tend to be one of the most reliable as there are no moving parts to wear out. I suspect HT amps may be less reliable than a plain stereo amp however.
Thank ya ae. Looks like mine are "k", shew! Just made it :eek:
Yes you did... I think it was either the J shipments or the ones right before it. You should be in the clear. :cool:Quote:
Originally posted by MrSalty
Thank ya ae. Looks like mine are "k", shew! Just made it :eek:
You're getting confused. WPC makes a good deal of a difference, but your SPL is the real player. You need a full double in wattage to make a 3db difference, but just 1 more SPL, and you can get a lot more. The tradeoff is when you try to find speakers that handle lower frequencies as well as the highs, then you get a lower SPL. That's why your sub's usually at least twice as many watts as your satellite speakers.Quote:
Originally posted by Phaethon
P.S. If you do go the HT route, don't get too obsessed about numbers. The most misleading term is often the WPC. There is no real standard way of measuring this and many manufacturers will intentionally mislead you. See if you can get a low end Denon, Onkyo, Marantz, etc. receiver in your price range. I think the lowest model Denon is the 1602? It only does something like 75 WPC but I would still rather own it than a 100 WPC reciever from a lesser company. Besides, in your price range you don't need that much power.
Suggestively, you should get an 80-100 watt receiver, and check the SPL on your speakers that you get. That will provide the best volume. Also, compare your THD or haronic distortion percentages, so you know you'll be getting something with good quality.
Happy hunting. :)
I think Phaethon suggestion is very well advised. WPC and other numbers are so distorted and falsified its should be criminal, and their value as a guage of performance becomes nill. Youll also find the worst companies distort their specs the most while the best are the most honest. So in short "don't get too obsessed about numbers" they will likely steer you away from a truly superior product.
If you have the luxery LISTEN to them, pic it up the heavier the better, peek inside the vents do you see paper thin cuircut boards or chunky capacitors. Lastly take a gander at Audioreview.com reviews, take them with a grain of salt but you can still get some good anecdotal evidence about them.
Your WPC ratings are generally all the same, they're about the same as your HDD ratings go. It may be a slight bit under/over. Some companies get dishonest with both... The THD frequencies I doubt they'll mislead you with, though... as they're more specific ratings, and it would be highly illegal to do so.Quote:
Originally posted by St= Z
I think Phaethon suggestion is very well advised. WPC and other numbers are so distorted and falsified its should be criminal, and their value as a guage of performance becomes nill. Youll also find the worst companies distort their specs the most while the best are the most honest. So in short "don't get too obsessed about numbers" they will likely steer you away from a truly superior product.
If you have the luxery LISTEN to them, pic it up the heavier the better, peek inside the vents do you see paper thin cuircut boards or chunky capacitors. Lastly take a gander at Audioreview.com reviews, take them with a grain of salt but you can still get some good anecdotal evidence about them.
WPC plays no large player. If they're off by a watt or so, it's nothing.
As I said before, you need a full double in wattage to get a 3db increase.
ie: an 1000 watt receiver's just as loud as a 1200 watt receiver. The increase isn't audible. A decible is the smallest increment that's noticable by the (average) human ear.
If your ratings are off a bit, it won't make a damned of a difference in overall loudness. Just make sure it's rated well.
I'm sure there's many audiophile websites of people who have tested their equipment. Just search around on www.google.com and checkout what they got for THD frequencies, and all.
The thing that a lot of the people in this thread (myself included) are forgetting is that you're playing with a limited budget. You're not going to be able to go top dollar, and top preformance.
Well, that's not necessarily true about overheating. I believe it's Class B (maybe A) amplifiers actually overheat when they are on with no signal, and drop in temperature when a signal is amplified. Kinda ***-backwards, I know, but it just goes to prove that there are exceptions to the common perception of amplifiers overheating.Quote:
Originally posted by pbirkett
I have had my amp at home turned on for many months, and it doesnt overheat. In my opinion, if an amplifier overheats when left on, then it surely is faulty. I have never come across any amplifier yet that overheats that wasnt faulty. Maybe it just needs some air.
A refurbished product may be alright. Out of all sound equipment that you can buy second hand, amplifiers tend to be one of the most reliable as there are no moving parts to wear out. I suspect HT amps may be less reliable than a plain stereo amp however.
It sounds like your describing Class A which uses a very high "Quiescent Current" or Bias Level, it draws pure unswitched current from the PS, as to keep te purist signal and avoid crossover distortion.
Class B uses more transistors and capicitors storing current and to switch on and off as needed, using two signals in "push pull" one to amplify the peaks (push) and one to amplify the troughs (pull) of the sound way.
There are countless other classes and permutations and you can bet these HT recievers are neither A nor B. Maybe D if its a Sony. Of course there are exceptions, I wouldnt leave my valve amplifier on because I would be wearing out the tubes as they remain charged. I still dont know about one running cooler when pushed though.
Crawling Eye I still disagree with you about rating wattage and THD, I'm not talking about a few watts here and there I'm talking about a 120 watt truly being 40 watts etc, Phaethon hit the nail on the head when he said there is no standard rating method, just look how you can say an amp is 500 watts RMS but normaly a 100 watts, now imagine all the shades between RMS and true watts stats. THD gets just as shady you can rate an amp at .5% THD at 20Watts and 4.0%THD at 40watts. Basicaly you can get whatever numbers you want out of an amp if you try hard enough. We will have to agree to disagree on this cause after years of stepping up the audio ladder (starting with a $150 Sony reciever), these things which I wouldnt have belived have become very apparent and unquestionale in my eyes.
Nalar talk about an expensive hobby, one of my power tubes is going south and now I'm looking at $200 to replace the matched quads of Svetlanas.
"Crawling Eye I still disagree with you about rating wattage and THD, I'm not talking about a few watts here and there I'm talking about a 120 watt truly being 40 watts etc, Phaethon hit the nail on the head when he said there is no standard rating method, just look how you can say an amp is 500 watts RMS but normaly a 100 watts, now imagine all the shades between RMS and true watts stats. THD gets just as shady you can rate an amp at .5% THD at 20Watts and 4.0%THD at 40watts. Basicaly you can get whatever numbers you want out of an amp if you try hard enough. We will have to agree to disagree on this cause after years of stepping up the audio ladder (starting with a $150 Sony reciever), these things which I wouldnt have belived have become very apparent and unquestionale in my eyes."
I think I now know what you're talking about.
You're talking about amps being stated as being "80 watts" per channel, when in reality they're more like 40, and the companies are just misleading people to believe that their peak wattage is going to be produces as a constant; without specifiying between peak and RMS ratings.
I agree, many companies can be deceiving. If you keep a keen eye you can pick things like that up. Many companies will rate their speakers at different volumes, too. They usually state the ratings, though. So when shopping, I would make a note of what they're rated at, the distance they're rated from, and the volumes being uses. :)
I'd just make sure to be careful.
Even RMS ratings can be meaningless without the right description. The correct description as far as I know, using my amplifier as an example:-
65 watts (RMS) per channel @ 8 Ohms (0.1% THD) or
85 watts (RMS) per channel @ 6 Ohms (0.1% THD)
However, I have seen some described as this in a catalogue:-
40 watts (RMS) per channel
And on closer inspection, this particular stat turned out to be:-
40 watts (RMS) per channel @ 4 Ohms (10% THD)
What this means is that the bottom system (which as you may of guessed was a cheap Midi Hifi) can actually produce 40 watts a channel, but at a very low impedance, and with very high levels of distortion, whereas the top system has far less distortion at far higher levels and at greater impedances. The bottom system may as well only be about 20 watts a channel.
So therefore even RMS descriptions can be misleading at times.
Paul
Agreed, they can try to mislead you. However, they won't lie to you.
They don't prey on lies, they prey on deceit.
Just make sure you're going to a good company, and when buying a receiver/speakers, match your ohms up.
If the receiver's built to take an 8 ohm load, get two 16 ohm speakers, if it's built to take a 4 ohm load, get two 8 ohm speakers.
A lot of people all ways think the higher the impendance the better the sound quality, but that's not neccessarily true. The higher the impendence is just like a higher compression, except it works for your power, not your sound. :)
I've all ways liked the lower impendances. :)
Just be careful in reading things. You can all ways try speakers out with a receiver, if you go to a good audio-house. :)
what does the distortion number mean?Quote:
Originally posted by pbirkett
65 watts (RMS) per channel @ 8 Ohms (0.1% THD) or
85 watts (RMS) per channel @ 6 Ohms (0.1% THD)
...and with very high levels of distortion, whereas the top system has far less distortion at far higher levels and at greater impedances.
For example "65 watts (RMS) per channel @ 8 Ohms (0.1% THD)" Is good, bad, etc?
Why is that?Quote:
Originally posted by CrawlingEye
If the receiver's built to take an 8 ohm load, get two 16 ohm speakers, if it's built to take a 4 ohm load, get two 8 ohm speakers.
I really don't know much about audio, hence the noob questions?:p
Distortion is what happens when you start driving an amplifier towards the limit, the sound begins to lose quality. Bass will start making farting noises, and the sound will start to break up. So the figure above means that at 65 watts, the amplifier will produce 0.1% distortion in the sound, which is quite a low figure (though it can still be lower, generally the lower the volume, the less distortion).Quote:
Originally posted by JDC
what does the distortion number mean?
For example "65 watts (RMS) per channel @ 8 Ohms (0.1% THD)" Is good, bad, etc?
10% is a high amount of distortion, which will severely degrade the quality of the sound you hear. This basically means that if someone quotes 10% THD for a specified wattage, it means it cant produce that power to an acceptable quality. Distortion is bad, it can damage your speakers.
Crawlingeye, the speakers I use with my amp are low impedance speakers. I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think that most amps wont have problems with lower impedances provided the amp has a good quality power supply. Lower impedances mean more watts! :D
Paul