AGAIN :) Cheap Duali is here and in I875

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Originally posted by sna
>>>>>You get whatever will suit your needs... But it is not the best solution for everyone...

its a free country

>>>>>>A Dual processor setup would run just as well as a overclocked chip with HT...

This talk need to be proven pal... physical Processors VS logical??? also...unstable OC VS powerfull stable duali??? I wonder whos making mistakes here

>>>>>But whatever floats your boat... I remember some of your older posts which was totally wrong dealing with dualies...

I dont remember that. Dont go cheap on ur arguments...that was flaming

>>>But then buy it and have fun... Nothing more to say..

see ya

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Dude, You dont remember that thread over in CPU (if I got my section correct) The statements you were making were totally off the wall and false.. But hey you can have selected memory :D

Also who said anything about overclocking be unstable? We both know that a dual 2.4Ghz processor DOES NOT EQUAL 5GHZ.... Hever has and never will.. With current technology...

BTW: You are mistaken sorry...

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Originally posted by Colossus


Dude, You dont remember that thread over in CPU (if I got my section correct) The statements you were making were totally off the wall and false.. But hey you can have selected memory :D

Also who said anything about overclocking be unstable? We both know that a dual 2.4Ghz processor DOES NOT EQUAL 5GHZ.... Hever has and never will.. With current technology...

BTW: You are mistaken sorry...

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nope my statements were right..anyway

also, If u hate dualies that much dont get one that simple

and finally, I am saying that the dualis experience is more important than some 10% more speed ... I am talking all in one machine for guys who use heavy cpu demanding software like rendering and movie editing and AT the same time want to play games and enjoy a normal PC AAAAANNNNNDDDD not crazy freaks who r willing to buy or keep three PCs at the same time...thats all...(incase u tell me buy one for work and one for play..) the price of additional CPU is nothing compared if u buy a whole other system with monitor,HD,VGA etc...

and hey I ve seen ur 3 systems full blazing systems with top hardware and I dont think the additional price of a processor would harm ur budget..I think ur only flaming cos u dont like the IDEA.
anyway I am waiting for the price of 2.8GHZ xeon to go down to 350$ then I am making my dual,...

I wonder If I can OC it but I think it is dangerous... maybe the xeons r locked too but who cares...

the duali give u 30-60% increase in performance depending on the software PLUS real Multitasking not logical (run in background) one.
so it is not only performance issue it is the way u use the pc another experience... other dimensions...

the 2.4 will act like 3.6 on some software, (but again the dual 2.4 is the same price of single 3.0 which need to be overclocked)

the 2.8 will act like 4.2 or so and I am getting this one

add to it the real multitasking and that u get 4 processors (the xeons r ht too) then u have 2 physical and 2 logical

this is faaaar beyond P4... a real cool experience

it is like when we used 2D graphics then the 3D came in a whole new experience

dualis r cool experience...

Interesting conversation going on here. Just short of a flame war. I have been running dually's since the BP6(still running 2-366@500) and I have to say that a dual rig is a lot more "usable". Don't know if that's the right word but it really takes a lot to bring this machine I'm on right now to its knees. If you build them right they will not run any faster than a single but they can sure multitask better. That's the biggest misconception of most folks. A dual rig doesn't clock any faster it just multi tasks better. I have a bunch of 8-way Compaq 760's at work in an Exchange cluster that I have not been able to really stress test to their knees. They just keep chugging along.

That's really the big advantage of the dual machine.... Multitasking.

I think the more striking thing to me was going from Win2k to Linux. This box just flies now. I am getting a little dated on my box now; its a Dual P3 with 1.5gig of ram. I also run a 360 SCSI card and that really makes a difference. This thing boots pretty quick. I am waiting for Tyan to come out with their dual Opteron with an AGP slot(if they do). That will be fun!!!!

>>>>That is partly why they are working on 20 or so cores on one chip.

Eric,

how much up can they go??? there is a barrier I am sure...

unless the processor is twice bigger ie 2 in one ;)

anyway in theo. what is the limit do u know?

using the same tech...I doubt it...

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Originally posted by PDR60
Interesting conversation going on here. Just short of a flame war. I have been running dually's since the BP6(still running 2-366@500) and I have to say that a dual rig is a lot more "usable". Don't know if that's the right word but it really takes a lot to bring this machine I'm on right now to its knees. If you build them right they will not run any faster than a single but they can sure multitask better. That's the biggest misconception of most folks. A dual rig doesn't clock any faster it just multi tasks better. I have a bunch of 8-way Compaq 760's at work in an Exchange cluster that I have not been able to really stress test to their knees. They just keep chugging along.

That's really the big advantage of the dual machine.... Multitasking.

I think the more striking thing to me was going from Win2k to Linux. This box just flies now. I am getting a little dated on my box now; its a Dual P3 with 1.5gig of ram. I also run a 360 SCSI card and that really makes a difference. This thing boots pretty quick. I am waiting for Tyan to come out with their dual Opteron with an AGP slot(if they do). That will be fun!!!!

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thanx At last someone understands me...

and hey the dualis will give u 30-60% more performance if the software u r using supports dual processors, like 3D rendering progs, movie rendering, audio ripping, also WINRAR, and Quake (the only game that supports duali) etc they divide the calculations into two and run them at the same time which give u more power...

also since u r using tyan mobo I need ur advice is it good company?
I mite get this board from tyan, it has dual Xeons, AGP8X pro and 533FSB , SATA, everything... do u recommend Tyan?

check this out : http://www.tyan.com.tw/products/html/tigeri7505.html

thanx

Ok dude i get where u are coming from about duel cpu machines. Yes they are kewl (nice to brag to friends about) BUT you have a couple things wrong which u probably dont care but i just want to set the record straight. It does not matter what os, what program, what software does not matter in duel cpu machines 2x 2ghz xeon cpus DO NOT MAKE 4ghz it just SPLITS the tasks between the 2 cpus and thats only if you have software that supports it.. I would also take collosus 3 machines over ANY duel cpu machine.

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the 2.8 will act like 4.2 or so and I am getting this one

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Originally posted by ace727861986
Ok dude i get where u are coming from about duel cpu machines. Yes they are kewl (nice to brag to friends about) BUT you have a couple things wrong which u probably dont care but i just want to set the record straight. It does not matter what os, what program, what software does not matter in duel cpu machines 2x 2ghz xeon cpus DO NOT MAKE 4ghz it just SPLITS the tasks between the 2 cpus and thats only if you have software that supports it.. I would also take collosus 3 machines over ANY duel cpu machine.

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I come from earth... and I know exactly about Dualis and ur flaming and pushing words and Lies

man r u blind or cant u read English??? I KNOW that the dual does not give u double I said it gives u 30-60% more DEPENDING ON SOFTWARE

man stop the flaming

even I said 2.8 will act like 4.2 which is 60%more not 100% do some math ok dude???
2.8x2= 5.6
so u quoted my right saying against ur lie..

I said too DEPENDING ON SOFTWARE and I said software like rendering and movie editing so stop the flames

man I hate this

get lost

next time read carefully then post a reply u r saying exactly what I said

1. I said if software support duali
2.I said 30-60% not as u claimed 100% more

get lost again

I said no flames

Quote:

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Originally posted by PDR60
Interesting conversation going on here. Just short of a flame war. I have been running dually's since the BP6(still running 2-366@500) and I have to say that a dual rig is a lot more "usable". Don't know if that's the right word but it really takes a lot to bring this machine I'm on right now to its knees. If you build them right they will not run any faster than a single but they can sure multitask better. That's the biggest misconception of most folks. A dual rig doesn't clock any faster it just multi tasks better. I have a bunch of 8-way Compaq 760's at work in an Exchange cluster that I have not been able to really stress test to their knees. They just keep chugging along.

That's really the big advantage of the dual machine.... Multitasking.

I think the more striking thing to me was going from Win2k to Linux. This box just flies now. I am getting a little dated on my box now; its a Dual P3 with 1.5gig of ram. I also run a 360 SCSI card and that really makes a difference. This thing boots pretty quick. I am waiting for Tyan to come out with their dual Opteron with an AGP slot(if they do). That will be fun!!!!

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hey If u need an OPETRON with AGP it is available check this link out

: http://www.msi.com.tw/program/produc...il.php?UID=484

but man the opetrons r very expensive around 500$ each thats a dream machine man

http://www.msi.com.tw/images/product...r_img/9130.jpg

hey guys..

any one knows if the win XP pro supports Opetrons I read that they r 64bit cpu and not supported yet
by any consumer software

AFIK the Opteron can run any IA32 software, standard Windows stuff, in 32 bit mode.

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Originally posted by ua549
AFIK the Opteron can run any IA32 software, standard Windows stuff, in 32 bit mode.

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yes but this make the opetron slower and wont give u any advantage in speed right?

I was talking about 64bit support the opetrons will run equal to p4 in 32bit mode right?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sna
[B]

hey If u need an OPETRON with AGP it is available check this link out

: http://www.msi.com.tw/program/produc...il.php?UID=484

but man the opetrons r very expensive around 500$ each thats a dream machine man
-------
that board also runs 450 bucks

Just tell me, is there anything out there (Games, I am thinking) that can exploit Dual CPUs? I know OSs can, i've done that "Open tons of windows and then close them real quick" trick, and on Duals, its really fast. I know, its a stupid test, but I saw the difference but frnakly, whats the damn point if I can't use the second CPU whileI game?

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Originally posted by Captain Hook
Do you guys think that for most home users a dual cpu setup is overkill? I have never used one so I don't know but I have heard their performance increase is not that great in games or everyday applications.

Also, I would not consider $250 US (so like $350 CAD for me) for a motherboard dirt cheap. These systems, when you add a couple nice processors to that $250, are very high cost.

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Very few consumer apps that I know of would actually make use of dual CPU's. Photoshop does, as do a few audio apps like Cubase SX and Sonar. But the one I use, Cool Edit Pro, does not, so spending like an extra $300 approx. wouldn't make much sense.

Best case scenario:

Xeon 2.4GHZ x 2, plus Asus = approx. $750, give or take.

P4 2.8Ghz + P4C800 = $460 approx.

Sure it's probably faster than the single 2.8, but if your apps can't use it, what's the point?

Besides, for my uses, more RAM would be more beneficial, as would faster HDs. I'd rather spend that money in Raptors.

I must say it is cool to see duallie's coming down a bit, maybe this move by Asus will continue the push for dual support, and perhaps in the future more apps will make use of it.

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Originally posted by GetCarter
...frnakly, whats the damn point if I can't use the second CPU whileI game?

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sorry but I have to do this:

[rant]
god, you guys are so friggin ignorant....
as the example in quote above shows... you guys are all gamers, and dont have a friggin clue what performance a dual machine has and what it is good for, so dont post here if you dont have a clue!
Or atleast READ the posts carefully, do your reasearch and then post!

And this forum isnt a GAMERS General Hardware forum, or is it?

Jeeeeeeeeezzzzz!
[/rant]

SNA, I appreciate the research youve done so far, a dual setup at that cost is awesome. AND FOR THOSE WHO NEED A DUAL SETUP this is valuable information!

Firstly, this is all old news, as some guys here would like to say, I posted this board a way back in this thread: <Here>

But to re-cap:

Hot on the heels of i865's being re-jigged to prevent PAT-feature enabling, Asus apprently have discovered another chipset feature not documented by Intel in the 875:

http://www.asus.com/products/server/...dl/pc-dl_l.jpg

In all other respects, the board's specs. suggest a typical i875P-based system. It offers AGP 8x Pro; HyperThreading and PAT support; eight USB 2.0 ports and a single 1394 port; dual-channel ATA/133 and Serial ATA support.

BTW ...shame they can't do this with the regular P4C's, that would be cool, dual 2.4C's ...just like the 'old' days!

Story

Anyway, some points to make.

* No, you can't use P4's because they have multi-processing disabled, just as HT used to be disabled. Furthermore, the Xeon's have additional core-logic dedicated to multi-processing.

* The Xeon is running at the same price effectively, as the P4 when one talks of comparable spec (no more of a premium than $15-20). However, there are multiple Xeon's from the entry-level (i.e. workstation) this poster first intimated, up to those expressly designed for 4 and 8-way boxes that run larger L2 caches. Furthermore, Intel have also released a variant with 1MB L3 cache in response to being 'Eaten (tm)' by the new Opteron's at price point somewhere between the two Xeon's already mentioned (what you'd call $500-650). These processors have already been proven to be of practically Zero benefit in terms of performance, except under a very limited range of Apps (please note though, I have yet to see and database benchies, only workstation comparisons).

* the reason Asus can use this i875 chipset for Xeon's is because firstly it's derived from Granite Bay, and secondly because so are the current crop of P4 Server chipsets. The main differences really boil down to these factors on the server chipsets: No AGP, full Validation, support for advanced features such as RAID and SCSI plus multiple Gb LAN connections.

* People seem to forget that Xeon's have HT enabled to, and that since they beat 2GHz, it now actually works as well, if not better than on the desktop variant. This means if you view your P4 3.2GHz as offering Dual abilities, the Dual Xeon is effectively seen as a 4-way machine :D The first multi-Xeon mainboards and HT cpu's actually caused us issues in this respect, as Win2K Server would not originally recognize this as it viewed HT-enabled processors as physical, thus disabled them (becuase 4-way required Advanced Server). Dell helped us badger M/S to get this fixed ASAP as we simply refused to buy any more servers until it was sorted (our server budget alone is £££m's per annum).

* Dual does offer huge benefits over single. Aside from multi-tasking, you benefit in all the applications that still remain the true tests of single cpu options, e.g. video-editing, which is rapidly entering the home. It also offers increased stability (if the build is good) and better up time, which even with Windows :p is why we never buy single CPU servers anymore, you just get fewer major crashes. Furthermore, it is the future, or at least in terms of HT. Intel showed a roadmap that detailed how they hoped HT would evolve to incorporate the ability to 'effectively' simulate three processors within a single cpu by further enhancing the way threads are handled.

* Any games using the Q3 or derived engines will benefit greatly if set-up to do so, as it uses a fully multi-threaded OpenGL engine. I don't recall hearing of any D3D based games that do, ironically these are erring toward 64-bit for improving performance.

* The only other point that springs to mind recently, is that a guy in another thread, demonstrated that the 2.4 Xeon's can quite easily run at the 800FSB with the correct set-up, so over-clocking to (std.) desktop levels is a possibility.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Exode


sorry but I have to do this:

[rant]
god, you guys are so friggin ignorant....
as the example in quote above shows... you guys are all gamers, and dont have a friggin clue what performance a dual machine has and what it is good for, so dont post here if you dont have a clue!
Or atleast READ the posts carefully, do your reasearch and then post!

And this forum isnt a GAMERS General Hardware forum, or is it?

Jeeeeeeeeezzzzz!
[/rant]

SNA, I appreciate the research youve done so far, a dual setup at that cost is awesome. AND FOR THOSE WHO NEED A DUAL SETUP this is valuable information!

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Why dont you shut the **** up and chew on a bull's **** while you're at it. You make outlandish claims of performance boosts, and if this is only for the regular office joe, what the hell do we want it for. I posed that question in case developmens have been made upon dual-CPU technology, y'know, like allowing Games to exploit the power of such a system. There is no GAMER'S HARDWARE FORUM, for your information.

Well, I think you're being a bit out of line GetCarter TBH, but to answer your question anyway, not yet. But, if:

• Doom3
• Half Life 2
• Quake 4
• And anything else running an id 3D OpenGL engine

Hold any appeal to you then your answer becomes yes, in the near future you will see benefit, the degree to which is completely unknown as yet, because the last time a dualie board came out like this (i.e. AGP and 'desktop' features support) was PIII days with Quake 3. Optimised, this offered significant gains across all resolutions as I recall (seeing a friends Dual PIII 733 Dell graphics workstation whoop every other hi-spec single cpu machine in HL and Q3, and then continue to do so whilst hosting a non-dedicated LAN game for 12 players when the dedicated LAN box died), and this was before Hyper-Threading had ever been announced. As stated in my post, our dual Xeon servers appear as 4-way machines under Win2K and one can only speculate as to whether or not even an 'id-engine' could be so well coded and optimised as to make full use of that available performance ...I'd hazard a guess that it could
though :D

So, aside from SP/Online games, you have multi-tasking, digital and other media creation, the ability to run ad'hoc LAN gaming sessions without need for a dedicated server, the ability to more reliably share a broadband connection through a dual-NIC dual-CPU machine (if you don't have a router ...which would be cheaper :p ), the ability to undertake heavy graphics or database type work (if you also work from home), the option to run MP3 content and do intensive work without the 'hiccups' you get with an SP machine, plus a whole other heap of benefits ...it starts to look better. You may not get the longevity to warrant the cost if you are a biggest, latest, fastest kit type person, but if you want something to last, short of 64-bit hitting the mainstream big-time, the extra cost if done sensibly could potentially be re-couped by the ability to go without needing to upgrade for longer.

Quote:

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Originally posted by GetCarter


Why dont you shut the **** up and chew on a bull's **** while you're at it. You make outlandish claims of performance boosts, and if this is only for the regular office joe, what the hell do we want it for. I posed that question in case developmens have been made upon dual-CPU technology, y'know, like allowing Games to exploit the power of such a system. There is no GAMER'S HARDWARE FORUM, for your information.

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dude, chill!

Read my post again, CAREFULLY!
I never made any claims on perfomance increases.

Congratulations! You have just confirmed the "gamers stereotype" I was talking about, thanks for proving it!

Please read Dan@354-Pines post again, just to be sure that youve understood what he said!

As an aside,

I've never really understood, apart from being bl00dy obtuse and anoyed that they made a mistake back in the early Pentium days, as to why Intel so adamantly refuses to allow the desktop CPU's to run in MP configs. Really, it makes no sense. It means having to create a low-end Xeon in this case, which further blurs the distinction between server and desktop chips whilst simultaneously eliminating a whole section of that low-end/entry-level market.

In terms of companies like mine ...the ones who really buy Xeon-based servers en mass, they loose nothing. We wouldn't touch a low-end non-certified processor in a server, which is why we never touch AMD. Even in tests, AMD won like for like hands down on price and performance against (the early) dual-Xeon servers, and we went and got dual Xeons purely because of the Intel badge and the fact that they validate their stuff like crazy (according to one of our whitepapers, one Intel test showed the fans in the server case to be so powerful, that in advent of a cpu fire, the fans almost instantly put the fire out).

Small companies in my experience either go with no servers at all, or go to another option (i.e. use a sp desktop solution for a server, or a competitor like AMD) rather than spend big bucks on server chips and chipsets. Were the cross-over to be transparent between desktop and dual processing they'd open up a much bigger transitional market IMO. That only leaves content creators, who will pay premium's for server-calibre products if warranted (i.e. if price equals performance) and data centres who will also shirk the server cpu's where they can, instead opting for options like huge arrays of clustered small servers with lots of redundancy built-in that way.

We've used that approach with 2U dual Xeon-based rack servers, and also with larger servers (e.g. 8-way 2MB cache with Cache Coherency filters Xeons) and to be honest, the business is swaying toward the former from the latter based on cost and performance and pretty much any other argument you can find. With O/S's and applications increasingly supporting clustering better and better, this is now a real possibility. The funny thing is, in one project we spent more on this approach than a previous comparable project, because the Dual PIII based 2U option at the time, came with the Tualatin (512Kb cache) cpu's which allowed us to develop a much better solution around multiple servers, than the equivilent solution using a single four-way server set-up.

The signs are there that Intel's maybe feeling a bit more threatened in it's core server market than it ever has before, what with the 1Mb L3 Xeons and the constant Dothan rumours, but honestly, I don't see Intel really having to worry due to the reasons outlined above.

These new Opteron's do look expensive (compared to previous AMD offerings), but lets hope this is indicative of quality and performance ...and of getting proper validation to make them at least worth considering in the corporate market. :)

The markup for a P4 compared to a Xeon is around $50 - $100+ dollars depending on speed...

Granted the price did come down but for most people and most applications on the market.. The extra CPU would be wasted...

So unless you have a specific application in mind that you will indeed use, that supports dualie.. then go for it... Otherwise it is not worth the premium... Since it is still more expensive (Second chip, price premium over standard P4 and the added price of the board)

Hey, one place where our Rip-off Britannia culture 'works out better' :confused: :confused: :confused: than the US ...well, I wouldn't go that far LOL! :D ..but here the premium for Xeon's is much, much smaller, equiv' of $50 max across the Xeon P4 equivilent range.

Still, I largely agree with the perspective that it's not worth the extra outlay, but was just trying to make the point that it shouldn't be so easily dismissed out of hand, particularly for those with a diverse range of computing interests outside of the more commonly represented hardcore benchmarking and gaming fraternity. I still think with Digital Video becoming more and more mainstream, that's one area where the amateur (rather than novice) to semi-pro enthusiasts would reall appreciate dual processing. Outside of the likes of 3D modelling there's few other applications that demanding out there to even truly warrant bigger, faster single processor units but for the desire many share to have the biggest PC :D ...oh I nearly wrote something else there! :eek:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Dan@354-Pines
Hey, one place where our Rip-off Britannia culture 'works out better' :confused: :confused: :confused: than the US ...well, I wouldn't go that far LOL! :D ..but here the premium for Xeon's is much, much smaller, equiv' of $50 max across the Xeon P4 equivilent range.

Still, I largely agree with the perspective that it's not worth the extra outlay, but was just trying to make the point that it shouldn't be so easily dismissed out of hand, particularly for those with a diverse range of computing interests outside of the more commonly represented hardcore benchmarking and gaming fraternity. I still think with Digital Video becoming more and more mainstream, that's one area where the amateur (rather than novice) to semi-pro enthusiasts would reall appreciate dual processing. Outside of the likes of 3D modelling there's few other applications that demanding out there to even truly warrant bigger, faster single processor units but for the desire many share to have the biggest PC :D ...oh I nearly wrote something else there! :eek:

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It is still more then that :D

P4 3.06Ghz $390
Xeon 3.06 $520

So that is more then a $50 premium :D

But like you said... Having a dual setup is a very specialized application in mind...

I'd rather pay an extra 100 or two and get pci-x with the package.