I also own a AWE64D (their rare PCI version) but only because it's near a collectors item.
I also own a AWE64D (their rare PCI version) but only because it's near a collectors item.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
let's not post here anymore then:
continue here:
http://www.sharkyforums.com/showthread.php?t=309098
WT FUDGE!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
when I first got my Xi-Fi extereme gamer I was disappointed that when I connected it to my 5.1 system I only get 2.1 channels..
WTfluck! it seems they just don't want to do the drivers for it..
The solution is to drop Creative all together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nabby
You can go with onboard or M-AUDIO. Onboard really isn't that bad these days. It's pretty damn decent.
The real problem is that Creative has monopolized the gaming audio market with EAX, which is the standard. If DD or DTS was the standard, it wouldn't be an issue because then any sound card could just output optical to a receiver. There have only ever been a few games that used DD that I know of. America's Army did in the very early days. I don't know if it does anymore. I think one version of UT did too.
Until people stop buying Creative's crap, the industry will continue to use EAX. Rumor has it though that Creative is getting out of the card business all together, and moving to a EAX software solution. Rumor has it, anyway. That would explain why there are no PCI-E sound cards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaNihilist
Thats quite true indeed ....
I dont know many people who actually need pci soundcards apart from a dj i know. Most home users will be fine with onboard as its progressed a long way in recent years from your basic line in, line out, mic ports.
just got my soundblaster extreme fatal1ty and i think its great. have it hooked up to bose 7.1 and sounds fantastic. sounds great in headphomes too. am running vista 64 and have had no driver problems. came with drivers for xp and vista. no in game problems either. blue ray discs are fine also. maybe im just lucky. love the THX controle pannel too.
Okay, have read about the net that a boycott of all creative goods has started. So, whats a good sound card that isnt a creative one?
I don't buy that reason. The process of getting surround audio off a disc generally doesn't involve the sound card whatsoever...but I'm going to stop there, because the EULA forbids discussion of ripping software. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by James
Besides, we are VERY far off from actually having support for a secure chain of transmission given that HDMI seems to be the only audio interface to actually support it and HDMI audio has just about 0% penetration in the PC market.
I may be mistaken...but I believe that the issue at hand is the Creative cards' ability to do DD/DTS passthrough and decoding in Vista, whereas the Auzentech cards additionally provide DDL/DTS encoding. These are VERY different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
Surround sound from movies is generally encoded with DTS or DD, so in order to access this surround content you either need to decode it in the sound card and output it over an analog connection (i.e. the front/surround/sub & center plugs) or send it digitally via a passthrough to an external DD/DTS decoder (such as an AV receiver).
(This part I'm a bit shakier on, so someone please correct me if I am in error.) When you are gaming, the sound card is processing EAX effects on decoded sound. In order to output surround sound over a digital connection, you need to encode the sound using something like DDL so that the external receiver can understand it. You can send a non-surround signal over a digital connection just fine. You can send a surround signal over an analog connection just fine. You just can't send an unencoded surround signal over a digital connection (regardless of how much I wish you could).
The Creative cards support on-card surround decoding/passthrough in XP, whereas this functionality is currently broken in Vista. Daniel_k fixed this problem before Creative did, but Creative told him to stop distributing his drivers...which is why there is such an uproar.
Are you maybe mistaking OpenAL for DD? Would seem kind of strange for the game engine itself to be generating DD; that kind of low-level encoding is usually done by the sound processor. Also, AA is based on the Unreal Engine, so it very likely shares the same sound architecture as the Unreal games.Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaNihilist
Not necessarily...Quote:
That would explain why there are no PCI-E sound cards.
Here's one reason. There are bridge chips available now that will do a majority of the work required to convert a PCI card to PCIe, but it's still one extra part you have to pay for, make room on the card for, and compensate for electrically. Considering that it creates a non-trivial amount of design complexity and provides no actual benefit (since most people these days still have free PCI slots), I'd say that's the more likely reason why we haven't seen more PCIe sound cards.
Now, I'm not ruling out that Creative is creating a software EAX solution, but I hardly think that's the only reason that they aren't making many PCIe cards.
damn, a boycott? lol. i just dropped like $150 if i remember correctly(baught alot of parts :) ) on my creative card. wish i would have heard about this. i was going to get a diffrent card but james and a couple others suggested this one. its been a good card so far, but the service will go to crap if they lose their customer base. this card rocks though so oh well.
I've installed the kX driver and I don't intend to DL any X-Fi driver from Creative anymore....at least, until they'd released a proper driver that brings back the full function of my X-Fi's (same functionality as with XP). Until then, I'm gonna hang with this modded driver.....tried a few games already, no problem whatsoever. The more I think about it, the angrier I get.......I suspect Creative could have enable these features a long time back (unless the driver team is totally THAT inapt) but have not done so due to whatever reasons they have. If they were trying to push consumers into getting X-Fi's, the very least they can do is to fully support their cards......I've had enough of their half-baked, buggy and crippled drivers!
Edit - Geez, that thread in my first post has taken a life of its own! >2.2k replies as of now.:eek:
lol Yeah. We all were "OK" with Creative's drivers, as long as the hardware was decent.
Seems the next step is either Auzentech (Licenses creatives technology, but custom spins their drivers), or Asus' Xonar (a custom CMedia chip).
As of right now, the Xonar seems the better solution, as the drivers are cleaner, and they offer full EAX wrapper support through software. If you aren't familiar with EAX and Vista, Vista uses OpenAL for sound. EAX uses DirectSound (part of the DirectX package). Without DirectSound, there is no EAX in games. Creative offers a software package called ALchemy (get the OpenAL reference?), but it only "patches" certain games to work properly.
Asus' Xonar driver wrapper allows for all EAX games to be played with proper sound. It's more CPU intensive, but if the EAX effects are important to you, then it should be worth it.
As of right now, I will probably Mod my X-Fi and see if I can get better sound out of it. If I kill it in the process, I will either switch to onboard sound for the short term, or look at the Asus Xonar D2.
hahahahahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by ImaNihilist
The best part about that? EAX hardware acceleration isn't supported under Vista. EAX acceleration is tied to DirectSound, and Vista uses OpenAL. That's the reason Creative had to release ALchemy, and that Asus licensed Creative's EAX software, and created a wrapper for it in their drivers (DS3D GX). It basically allows the OpenAL driver to pass acceleration to the card for EAX effects. It has some CPU overhead, but it's not terrible. (1% or so)
Oh, and Candyman's right about the PCIe soundcard issue. Asus offers both a Xonar D2 (PCI), and a Xonar D2X (PCIe). The PCIe variant requires a floppy power connector. Why? Because the chip onboard is designed for PCI power delivery, not PCIe. So they had to mod the card, since that was cheaper than redesigning the onboard chip.
yeah I'm looking at the xonar myself...as more and more games start to use openal the switch to vista and a new sound card seems more likely
I'm pretty sure it was DD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Candyman
Ah! It was this, "NVIDIA(r) nForce(tm) or other motherboards/soundcards containing the Dolby(r) Digital Interactive Content Encoder required for Dolby Digital audio."
And yeah, I agree that there are probably an onslaught of reasons why there are no PCIe sound cards, but I don't buy the technical argument. Not from a company like Creative, anyway. They are masters of selling you crap you don't need. It would seem more in-line with them to create a PCIe card, and then market it as being a billion times superior to its PCI counterpart.
I'm pretty sure that that just means, "This game has surround audio, so you if your sound card supports Dolby Digital encoding, then you can turn that surround audio into a DD stream." Granted, that is a very strange way of saying it. At the time, Soundstorm was the only available solution for doing DD encoding from games.Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaNihilist
It's not just at the individual game level, though. If you have Soundstorm (or any other product that supports DDL), then you can get DD output from any game that has surround sound.
i was looking at the xonar 7.1 but everyone said "dont get that, get a soundblaster". lol. oh well. at least i get to see how creative is for myself. i havent been able to use my mic yet but everything else is steller.
back in 2002 i was in need of a replacement soundcard and settled on the Hercules Fortissimo III, which was pretty much the same as the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz. I am STILL using the card to this day and Hercules has even released Vista drivers for it last year. a SIX YEAR OLD card that is still supported. Creative can learn something here.
Alot of mobos have very nice built in sound these days. I havent used a sound card in a few years now, and never have with my new machine.Quote:
Originally Posted by LordVampyre
Seems the mod has edited the first post to reflect Creative's stance on the matter now -
We have read the strong feedback about Creative's forum post regarding driver development by Daniel_k and other outside parties. Creative's message posted on our behalf by our Company spokesperson tried to address our concern about the improper distribution of certain software which is the property of other companies. However, we did not make it as clear as we would have liked that we do support driver development by independent third parties. The huge task of developing driver updates to accommodate the many changes in the Vista operating system and the extensive testing required, including the lengthy Vista certification requirements for audio, makes it very difficult for Creative to develop updates for all past products. Outside developers have been very helpful to Creative and our customers by developing updates for many of our Sound Blaster products, and we do support and appreciate these efforts. This however does not extend to the unauthorized distribution of other companies' property. We hope to work out a mutually agreeable method for working with Daniel_k in supporting his efforts in driver development. Going forward, we are committed to doing a better job of working more closely with third parties to support their development for our products and our customers.
I think CL has finally seen the light after the great number of outraged posts at their attitude towards Daniel_k and its customers in general. Release better drivers to enable all the features I see when I was using XP, that's all I want. Anywayz, what do you guys think? A little too little, a little too late?
Well, I think there are a couple things about this statement that Creative has yet to realize:Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeysg
1. The press they've received in the last few days has generated a tremendous amount of ill will toward them. And by that, I mean, "crowds and crowds of enthusiasts no longer willing to buy their products." I'm not sure they realize exactly how badly they've screwed up. Which, if you've looked at their financials lately, is exactly the opposite of what they needed to do. Makes me want to short their stock...
2. They really should have just made a job offer to Daniel_k instead of C&D'ing him. In addition, they should have not done it publicly, on THEIR FORUM.
3. Their first statement was full of vague, useless marketing-speak even though it was directed at a single person. If you've checked their PR, it's always full of the same crap. They need to learn to talk to their customers as if we aren't complete idiots. Even the revised statement is practically devoid of information. This is how the statement should have read:
"We're sorry, we screwed up. The reason that we didn't release Vista support for DD encoding/passthrough is because we haven't paid Dolby a licensing fee yet [or whatever the actual reason is]. Daniel_k, you've done some great work. Please come fix our crappy driver development situation. Also, please stop distributing your version of the driver with DD support enabled in Vista so Dolby doesn't sue us into oblivion. Thanks!"
That's the big reason they released the C&D? Because he enabled Dolby support? That's the "Other companies software" they are talking about? I totally agree with all of your points. Man, this whole thing being caused by Dolby issues is a simple fix. Creative went at this completely wrong.
Sheesh. :mad:
As you mentioned, Creative's financials can't really take a mass exodus of their customers (I posted as much in my PCIe soundcard thread). Alas, I'm afraid that they will find that out the hard way.
to me it's a little too late.
the fudge up and now want to come crawling back.
the point is that this SHOULD NOT have happened in the first place. it's like a lover cheating on you and you found out. you don't looking at them the same again.
Creative is on my black list now.
along with these no rebate recieved scumbags:
Tiger Direct, Sapphire, Smilidon
It's a little late. I understand about Creative having certain legal responsibilities, they could have handled that better in the forums. But I stand by my remark I made back in the stone age that Creative needs to do what ATI did in the past with their video cards.
1. Admit that their drivers are way below par and are unexceptable.
2. Make it publically known that they are investing in a new effort to bring real quality to their drivers and thus confidence in their products.
Once ATI made that pledge with their Radeon line, they followed through and gained the respect of many as a result. Creative has been pretending that they don't have an issue and have remained in hiding since the begining.
At least on-board sound has been good enough to make it possible for most to ignore Creative altogether. It justs sucks that EAX is still a standard.