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I think the real benefit of playing Zerg is knowing how to manage multiple bases and the production line. If you can establish enough bases you will win by virtue of being able to virtually create beyond the unit limit, since you can recreate your entire army in about a minute. I've been watching some of these YouTube videos and the good Zerg players always seen to have really good micromanagement over the production.Quote:
Originally Posted by vertices
Yeah you've got to be a macro master to play Zerg.
I always try to hit them hard and fast at their mineral lines. Hit the main, then hit the fast expo. Works fairly well. Most Zerg go for that fast expo which leaves them vulnerable to an early drop at the main. They usually have the zerglings/banelings/roaches at the front of the main or at the expo. You can always jump back into the medivacs when you see the banelings rolling in. This is what I normally take advantage of.
Doesn't always work, but it usually does.
I can rebuild a protoss army in a huge too. In one game I had 10 gateways I had about 140 supply left after my drones I could wrap in an entire army in about 2 minutes.
if you have enough money sitting in the bank to warp in an entire army, you are doing something wrongQuote:
Originally Posted by Nik00117
I've been watching some of these professionals play SC2 with their 300+ APM and I'm puzzled. What the hell are they doing? I see them rotating through like every single unit and structure... but what are they actually doing? I'd love to see a list of what the 300+ actions they are doing actually are. Anyone know where I can find this?
It kind of bothers me that the game can be played this way. I guess this is how it was with the original, but I never noticed, probably because I only played with people I knew and we'd always set our own engagement rules. Where is the strategy when it just becomes a competition of how quickly you can click things?
It would be interesting to see if the game becomes more strategic when played on the slowest setting.
Bing-freakin-Go.Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaNihilist
Which is why I have such a hard time going back to RTS games. They're fun and can be very involving, but the actual strategy is so gamey, that its almost the strategy equivalent of playing Madden online; you don't play actual football the way it would be coached on the field, you have to play the "game" version and find the tricks.
That's not to say its not a strategy in and of itself, it's just not the kind of strategy I can get into anymore.
When I used to be big into RTS it was in the early days of Red Alert and StarCraft. At that time I was playing either with my friends or my brother. Hell, I remember playing Red Alert over the modem... and sometimes games would last 2+ hours if we played large maps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff
The games were much more about building a defense first, then and offense and trying to find a weakness in the opponents defense.
Playing SC2 online (finally) seems to be an exercise in, well, hacking the game. It's about attacking as soon as possible, using structures as "sandbags", kiting (is that the term in RTS world?), etc.. I can't tell if I like it or hate it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaNihilist
you dont need an apm of 300+ to compete professionally.. if you watch interviews with pros, even thay say you only need an apm of about 75+ to compete professionally.
when you see apms of 300+ of ppl just clicking around its because the pros have practiced that way, learning not to waste time, if you constantly cycle through all your units and buildings even while idle, then you will keep yourself updated 24/7 on the situation. also it keeps your fingers "warm" for when you actually need to micro with that short burst of 100-300apm. when you are playing at the pro league, every little bit helps.
the reason you never see such a clickfest with games like Dow or C&C, is because they are not balanced enough to be played at such a competitive level. they are great games for casual/recreational gaming but if you bring money and multiplayer tournaments into the mix, then the really good players will figure out all the cheap tricks to those games and the game will resort to spamming cheap tricks. starcraft is a game of the players skill, so that why you see people with superhuman 300+ apm and excellent micro skills emerge at the top. any truly balanced competitive multiplayer game is like this: counterstrike (yes, its not realistic, but the top players are superhuman), street fighter 3rd strike, etc...
I guess that's a skill. It's button mashing though... that's the skill being "mastered".Quote:
Originally Posted by kpxgq
you dont need to button mash 300 apm to do well in starcraft... thats just a typical trait of alot of pro players.Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaNihilist
similarily, if you look at alot of pro fighting game players, you see that a vast majority of them use teacup at the ring finger grip on the joystick. that does not mean you need to use that grip to be good or that you will be good simply by using that grip.
Pros tend to not go above 100, maybe 150-200 large-scale combat. 2-3 actions isn't that much. I usually keep all my production stuff hotkeyed, and my active army is usually 2 or 3 separate control groups (if your army is a single control group, you're doing something wrong - you need to be able to micro different unit types without having to select them on the spot)Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaNihilist
mid-battle, select your command center through a hotkey. that's an action. it's mid-production. back to your army. then to your barracks. another action. they just got done producing. make four marines (2 barracks with reactors) and 2 marauders (2 barracks with tech labs) that's 6 action. same for factories and starports, always back to the army inbetween and probably even doing some micro there.
3 actions per second at peak times is less than you think, especially if queuing up 6 units can be done in less than a second and you're constantly checking on both your production buildings and your units.
If you really want to see how strategy works and how little it really has to do with APM (beyond not losing track of what all your things are doing), watch Day9 episode 170 here: http://day9tv.blip.tv/posts?view=archive&nsfw=dc
He tests a new strategy against a very easy CPU (so basically on his own), and refines it over 3 games, noting where the bumps are. He doesn't actually "do" that much, but he's still constantly flipping through all of his things to ensure that everything is on time (which it isn't because apparently playing and talking at the same time is pretty difficult)
Speaking of which, Day9 is the only worthwhile commenter. HD and Husky just talk about what's happening on screen, you might as well watch the replay without their dumb jokes. Day9 talks about what's happening behind the scenes, stuff that you can actually become a better player from.
That being said I might quit playing. A friend I used to play with is in Diamond, but he literally plays 8-12 hours a day. On one hand I want to constantly get better, on the other hand I know that I'm near the glass ceiling where I would need to play as much as him, and I don't want to be that guy.
You can get to gold with an APM of under 40. It's really not a measure of how good you are. Your APM is going to be low if you don't spam. However, mid game and further the higher APM you are capable of the better you will be at managing several situations at once. For example I like to make my ground units attack the front of the base, run, and then my Void Rays hit from the gas side of the base. I have to manage the fake base front attack, launch my real attack, and manage my economy. All of these take your ability to multi task in consideration.
you should play SC with my and my friends we still do that usually. We like the games lasting a while and building a massive army its fun :DQuote:
Originally Posted by ImaNihilist
Long massive games used to favor Terran players. Not sure what its going to be like now. The new patch is out, so hopefully it tones down terran late game dominance. I hate long games.
MP SCII does not interest me at all. I like to watch people play, but I get too damn anxious if I play these types of games online. This happened also when I tried to play wow arena. My leg would start going up and down, then I would start cursing badly, and finally I would quit and hate the world for about an hour.