Piracy, How much money is being lost, and what percent of them would have bought it?

I'm gonna be straight forward and honest. here

I'm now 28 actually just turned 28 last week.

anyway I've been pirating games and programs since I was about 14 years old back in 1991 since I got my first 286 PC (wow. half my life already :P

anyway I went as far as having a warez BBS in the mid 1990s with up to 4 nodes on 3 dedicated machines.

Truth is. for me personally. I just do it for the hell of it. some of those games I will never buy in the first place. and some games that are good I acutally go out and buy it. and I recoomend what game/software for them to buy when people ask me for opinions.

I got all the lateste games.
NFSU2, MOH, COD, Doom3, PainKiller, Men of valor, far cry, UT2004 etc...

but u know what. I only spend 10 minutes with them. and I don't haave
time to play them anyway so I won't be buying it in the first place. and I do regularily recommend games to other people.

(tho I did purchased UT2004 after playing the warez version for a few days. and convinced a few friends to buy it so we can play online)

I do support the author. but then again I make 50K+ a year.

but for some people they are forced to goto the warez scene.

I don't see how a 14 year old kid can pony up $49 all these new releases. maybe kids are rich right now who knows but when I was a flat as$ broke 14 year old i couldn't afford $40 for a game...

do that mean that a kid that can't afford/wont be buying a $49 game in the stores and he pirates the game. does it mean a $49 lost to piracy?

People who make illegal copies (pirates) do so to earn money.

People who download games or buy pirated copies, do so for many different reasons.

Some people wouldn't buy a game unless it was completely free.

Some people (who usually buy A LOT of games) would rather buy pirated copies because it just comes out cheaper.

I will admit that until recently, I was downloading games left and right ... I didn't play more than half of the ones I downloaded.

But with Far Cry, I started buying all the "good" games (UT2k4, Doom3 (on these forums), Rome - Total War (on these forums), Diablo battlechest (Diablo, Diablo2, Diablo2 exp) and I got the coupon for HL2 which you said was worthless, who's laughing now? (STALKER is on pre-order :D)

so, all the games I bought I liked each and everyone of them.

To me (personally), it is more pleasant to buy a game and enjoy it, than to get it for free (unless it's a gift) and enjoy it.

Then you have places like China. Until recently, PS2 wasn't sold in China, then Sony decided to release it there, and you know what? they said that games will cost much cheaper, but not cheaper than the pirated copies, so whoever says that "piracy raises prices" is full of **it (pun intended).

Also, if 100 people steal/download or otherwise get something for free, it doesn't mean that you have 100 lost possible buyers or even 1 ... it depends on how many people would buy it at all!!! There are people who wouldn't pay a cent for something.

I agree with you 100% and then some :D

IMO, when someone is selling something for kids, the idea is to make sure that kids want it ... nothing else matters!

My 12 year old cousin got 4 games when he turned 12. Needless to say, I went to EBGames and bought a used Rallysport Challenge 2 (which I admit I downloaded for XBOX), he liked the game (as did I :p)

And I am waiting for the next RallySport Challenge game and Colin McRae Rally to come out for PC (maybe even get a wheel), and I will choose one of those (leaning to Colin for now).

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rimmerchant
I'm gonna be straight forward and honest. here

I'm now 28 actually just turned 28 last week.

anyway I've been pirating games and programs since I was about 14 years old back in 1991 since I got my first 286 PC (wow. half my life already :P

anyway I went as far as having a warez BBS in the mid 1990s with up to 4 nodes on 3 dedicated machines.

Truth is. for me personally. I just do it for the hell of it. some of those games I will never buy in the first place. and some games that are good I acutally go out and buy it. and I recoomend what game/software for them to buy when people ask me for opinions.

I got all the lateste games.
NFSU2, MOH, COD, Doom3, PainKiller, Men of valor, far cry, UT2004 etc...

but u know what. I only spend 10 minutes with them. and I don't haave
time to play them anyway so I won't be buying it in the first place. and I do regularily recommend games to other people.

(tho I did purchased UT2004 after playing the warez version for a few days. and convinced a few friends to buy it so we can play online)

I do support the author. but then again I make 50K+ a year.

but for some people they are forced to goto the warez scene.

I don't see how a 14 year old kid can pony up $49 all these new releases. maybe kids are rich right now who knows but when I was a flat as$ broke 14 year old i couldn't afford $40 for a game...

do that mean that a kid that can't afford/wont be buying a $49 game in the stores and he pirates the game. does it mean a $49 lost to piracy?

---

sorry to be spamming, but long time ago I downloaded a game called Oni.

Then I couldn't find the game ANYWHERE!!!

So I bought it used in the trade section for 5USD :)

ohh forgot to mention one IMPORTANT aspect that separate me from those other scumbag pirates.

I DO NOT PROFIT from my downloading and pirating. I can't recall one incident where I sold a pirated game to anyone. I did occasionally help someone pirate game only but they were in a situtation where they won't or can't afford it anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rimmerchant
ohh forgot to mention one IMPORTANT aspect that separate me from those other scumbag pirates.

I DO NOT PROFIT from my downloading and pirating. I can't recall one incident where I sold a pirated game to anyone. I did occasionally help someone pirate game only but they were in a situtation where they won't or can't afford it anyway.

---

Hmmm... let's see here... the owner doesn't lose anything, and you wouldn't have paid the owner anyway, so it's okay to get it for free.

Let's say you are a taxi driver, providing a service, and I am just some guy off the street. For whatever reason, I don't want to pay you to take me around town. I know of ways to get access to your taxicab when you are not looking. I choose to use do that, and drive myself around town.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
ohh, I forgot to mention one IMPORTANT aspect that separate me from those other scumbag taxicab thieves.

I DO NOT PROFIT from my taxicab thieving. I can't recall one incident where I sold a taxicab ride to anyone. I did occasionally help someone else steal your taxicab, but they were in a situation where they won't or can't afford it anyway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

If I go in front of a judge with that explanation, I'm going to jail for grand theft auto.

"You don't lose anything, and I wouldn't have paid for it if you had forced me to pay for its use" works in a commune. Everything belongs to everybody. Unfortunately, you live in a capitalist economy (or, want the software from companies that exist in a capitalist economy). In a capitalist economy, you must pay if you want to buy a product or use a service. If you don't, it's stealing.

This has parallels to the idea of digital music and music piracy... there is no question that illegally downloading MP3s is stealing. But just because its wrong, doesn't mean that everybody will stop doing it. The fact of the matter is that software, like music, is prone to digital piracy, and will always be victims of digital piracy. The publishers can either try to prosecute offenders and "force" them back to the old ways of business (ie, go to store and buy a CD or retail game package... or else we will take you to court), or they can try and offer incentives for people to pay for something that they could get for free anyway. The software publishers should take some responsibility if they want to see this problem go away... they should embrace digital data distribution and integrate it into their business models, instead of trying to fight it head on.

But that doesn't mean you are allowed to just sit back and pirate until the software companies make it easier for you to buy than to pirate. Don't copy that floppy.

pirating = profit

everything else is just copyright infrigment.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rimmerchant
ohh forgot to mention one IMPORTANT aspect that separate me from those other scumbag pirates.

I DO NOT PROFIT from my downloading and pirating. I can't recall one incident where I sold a pirated game to anyone. I did occasionally help someone pirate game only but they were in a situtation where they won't or can't afford it anyway.

---

I admire the heck out of these pirates, in fact, some groups have huge followings and most them (if you believe them) buy the software, crack it, then share it. Thy say they do it for the scene or for the challange and that they dont make any money off it.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by slavik
pirating = profit

everything else is just copyright infrigment.

---

Kids, kids, kids. If you want to try and have a discussion on piracy, at least understand what it means.

Pirating has nothing to do with profit.

Dictionary.com, just a click away.

v. pi·rat·ing
To make use of or reproduce (another's work) without authorization.

Now then, where do you see "for profit" in that description? Nowhere. Copyright infringement = pirating.

-MrD

when first copyright infrigements started, who would sell the books???

pirates.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by MrDigital
Kids, kids, kids. If you want to try and have a discussion on piracy, at least understand what it means.

Pirating has nothing to do with profit.

Dictionary.com, just a click away.

v. pi·rat·ing
To make use of or reproduce (another's work) without authorization.

Now then, where do you see "for profit" in that description? Nowhere. Copyright infringement = pirating.

-MrD

---

Thank you for clarifying that.

I am glad someone has the wisdom to realize that copying without making profit DOES NOT make it okay.

You copy without permission for personal use, you are just as guilty as the guy who copies for profit.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by kent1146
Thank you for clarifying that.

I am glad someone has the wisdom to realize that copying without making profit DOES NOT make it okay.

You copy without permission for personal use, you are just as guilty as the guy who copies for profit.

---

I disagree with that one. Each is a separate crime. The piracy is the first crime, the sale is the second. That's like saying that possession of illegal drugs is just as bad as possession/sale. Or that robbing a convenience store is just as bad as robbing the convenience store and shooting the clerk.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Russell
I disagree with that one. Each is a separate crime. The piracy is the first crime, the sale is the second. That's like saying that possession of illegal drugs is just as bad as possession/sale. Or that robbing a convenience store is just as bad as robbing the convenience store and shooting the clerk.

---

There is possession of narcotics, and possession of narcotics with intent to distribute.

There is grand larceny, and grand larceny + 2nd degree murder.

The crimes mentioned above have been deemed as separate offenses by the law.

In the case of copyright infringement, there is just copyright infringement. There is no such thing as copyright infringement w/intent to distribute.

The penalties levied by a judge will probably be different for someone who copies for personal use vs. someone who copies for profit, but the crime is the same.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by kent1146
Thank you for clarifying that.

I am glad someone has the wisdom to realize that copying without making profit DOES NOT make it okay.

You copy without permission for personal use, you are just as guilty as the guy who copies for profit.

---

And dont forget not to rip those tags of the mattreses too. Crime is crime.

If you are somehow trying to say that violating copyright law is somehow acceptable, because it is acceptable to rip the matress tag off of a matress that you purchase, then I would love to hear it.

In fact, I will make it easier.

Under what circumstances is it acceptable to make an unauthorized copy of a piece of software?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Freddy_Kruger
And dont forget not to rip those tags of the mattreses too. Crime is crime.

---

Dude, you obviously haven't read what it says on mattress tags. It's something to the effect that mattress tags are not to be removed under penalty of law EXCEPT BY the consumer. That means hotels etc. can't remove them, but you can do whatever the hell you want with your own mattress.

But that's going way off track.

As for the entire copyright thing - I believe that all rational people here can agree with the fact that using a piece of software that you have not paid for is wrong, at least at the legal level if not your personal moral level. I don't see that there is anything to debate here except your personal moral convictions. Let's leave it at that.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Colossus
I agree, people DONT pirate because they cannot afford that program/game/movie/music/etc.. They do it because its so damn easy.

They ASSUME that since I cannot afford it anyway, It is okay for me to steal the game. Its not like they were going to get my money anyway. :rolleyes:

If you want that game so badly to play, you will find a way to afford it or WAIT until you can afford it. Even if it ends up in the bargin bin.

I do believe piracy is a large market. Not some small avenue that some people believe. I dont believe every **** and tom are pirating, but I do feel its a large portion.

---

I think the majority is stuff that would have not been purchased in the first place. If you really like something you will buy it. If it available for sale at least. There are a few titles that come to mind that were not allowed to be sold in the US. Its usually the software I don't care about that gets pirated. Usually it will be installed for less than a month. Just something to pass the time.

Eric

Quote:

---

Originally posted by ewitte
I think the majority is stuff that would have not been purchased in the first place. If you really like something you will buy it. If it available for sale at least. There are a few titles that come to mind that were not allowed to be sold in the US. Its usually the software I don't care about that gets pirated. Usually it will be installed for less than a month. Just something to pass the time.

Eric

---

But the thing is, you cannot count it as a NO SALE either. Even if you had no intentions of buying it :D

But what titles did you have to own or atleast demo for less then a month that was not available in the USA?

So with that said, It must be ok for me to STEAL cable (pirate). Its ok because I would NEVER of paid their high premium of $100 per month for all the channels (not included Pay-Per-View).. So that makes it ok? They would of never gotten a sale from me, so its ok for me to steal it...

That is what you are saying.

Or how about people who buy bootleg copies or download them from the internet. You know that famous guy or female in the movie theater with a video camera. Its ok to download that since I would of never went to the theater to watch it. So they still didnt lose a sale?

If you wasted your time/bandwidth/etc to download it. Then it was something with value to you. So both excuse would be stupid! It has some kind of value, but maybe not its current value. Never the less it still had some kind of value in your eyes.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by ewitte
I think the majority is stuff that would have not been purchased in the first place. If you really like something you will buy it. If it available for sale at least. There are a few titles that come to mind that were not allowed to be sold in the US. Its usually the software I don't care about that gets pirated. Usually it will be installed for less than a month. Just something to pass the time.

Eric

---

By your logic, if somebody doesn't care about it, then they won't mind if they stop pirating these "installed for less than a month" games.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by talldude

As for the entire copyright thing - I believe that all rational people...

---

heh, I'm not a member of that fringe element.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by kent1146
If you are somehow trying to say that violating copyright law is somehow acceptable, because it is acceptable to rip the matress tag off of a matress that you purchase, then I would love to hear it.

In fact, I will make it easier.

Under what circumstances is it acceptable to make an unauthorized copy of a piece of software?

---

Well, how about where it is legal or a mere grey area. Your laws stop at your borders.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Colossus
But the thing is, you cannot count it as a NO SALE either. Even if you had no intentions of buying it :D

---

No sale is no sale. Thats just as bad as counting people who never pirated it as a lost sale :) I could count it as a potential EXTRA sale. If its good enough and/or I recommend it to others :) I've had clients buy software I "tried" before based on my recommendation.

Quote:

---

But what titles did you have to own or atleast demo for less then a month that was not available in the USA?

---

The only thing thats at the top of my mind is "singles." From what I hear Australia gets royally screwed with software availability.

Quote:

---

So with that said, It must be ok for me to STEAL cable (pirate). Its ok because I would NEVER of paid their high premium of $100 per month for all the channels (not included Pay-Per-View).. So that makes it ok? They would of never gotten a sale from me, so its ok for me to steal it...

That is what you are saying.

---

No its not. That is what you are saying ;) I can't even PAY for my PAY-PER-VIEW :(

Quote:

---

If you wasted your time/bandwidth/etc to download it. Then it was something with value to you. So both excuse would be stupid! It has some kind of value, but maybe not its current value. Never the less it still had some kind of value in your eyes.

---

Its an addiction. I've downloaded stuff in the past that never got installed! Its more about obtaining it and "collecting."

Eric

Quote:

---

Originally posted by ewitte
Its an addiction. I've downloaded stuff in the past that never got installed! Its more about obtaining it and "collecting."

---

I never thought of it that way before but, ya it's absolutely addictive.
I used to video tape movies and television series etc star trek, xena etc. That is was acrime to some.
Now I download them a season at a time, they are in proper order, no commercials. I think it's great, even though you could buy them on DVD at a store, I would only want them if they were Free.

Just today, at the library, in the new book section, there was a copy of Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code. Now I have already bought that book but, if I took that book out and read it, and it prevented me from buying it, it's just like piracy but legal.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Colossus
You as the consumer cannot tell the software developer how much a given software package is worth. You have no right to say that Windows XP PRO OEM is worth $50 instead of $130.

---

The consumer defines what any/everything is worth because they are the ones who either pay for it or are not willing to pay for it.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Colossus

So since you dont agree with the pricing that doesnt NOT give you the right to pirate it. Since you wouldnt buy it at $130, so you download it for free. That is one of the dumbest thing I have heard!

---

Again, we are not discussing the “right” to pirate it but how much money software companies loose when people do pirate their software and this number will always be less then the retail sale price of the software multiplied by the number of pirated copies.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Colossus

Its like a TV, if you cannot afford the Mitsubishi 60" Wide screen, then you get something smaller or alternative within your budget. Most software has a very good comparable product for less or even free...

Such as..

Windows -> Linux
Office -> OpenOffice

---

Exactly, this is why the software industry numbers are bogus. They presume that every person running pirated software will buy their product if piracy is eliminated when if fact the majority will simply move to some free version.