Fair enough. This much I agree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by md1198p
But that is a far cry from defenses being able to "ignore" parts of the field because he can't hit them.
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Fair enough. This much I agree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by md1198p
But that is a far cry from defenses being able to "ignore" parts of the field because he can't hit them.
The guy was 1-7 last year. Regardless of how good you think he is, obviously defenses know how to do SOMETHING to defend against the guy. And if that's play everyone tight because he can't throw it long, it would explain a lot.
One last thing QB rating is pretty much a meaningless stat. I pretty much ignore it. It is a poor and flawed way to measure a QB's value to a team.
If 2 Qbs each throw 3 passes, from there opponents 30 yard line. One goes 3 for 3 for 10 yards each and a TD. The second goes 1 for 3 with a 30 yard TD.
The first guy would have a rating of 147.9.
The second a rating of 111.1.
For the exact same result, 3 pass attempts, 30 yards passing and a TD. Now thats a dumb stat and dumb formula.
I look at TD to INT percentage, and yards per attempt. The first shows you score points and hold onto the ball for your team, and the second shows you are moving the ball and probably getting first downs. Also, by default, a good yards per attempt means your completion percentage is probably at least pretty good, because an incomplete pass is obviously zero yards, which will lower the yards per attempt.
The record doesn't really mean anything to me. The teams record really doesn't mean anything about how an individual players has played.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDigital
That to me is a meaningless stat for measuring an individual player's performance.
I do agree that it's not always a fair measurement, but in the same token don't think that it's meaningless either.Quote:
Originally Posted by md1198p
If this is the case for you... compare Pennington's and Clemen's stats from last year and tell me that Clemen was the better QB.Quote:
I look at TD to INT percentage, and yards per attempt. The first shows you score points and hold onto the ball for your team, and the second shows you are moving the ball and probably getting first downs. Also, by default, a good yards per attempt means your completion percentage is probably at least pretty good, because an incomplete pass is obviously zero yards, which will lower the yards per attempt.
Clemens won more games... but as far as who the better QB was the stats show the real case I think.
In other news... the Steelers signed Leftwich. I would have been happy with the 'Phins had they sighed him as well. And I think that it was a mistake for Miami to give up picks for Culpepper, and then give up on him so early.
Here are the stats... again:
http://www.nfl.com/teams/newyorkjets...YJ&seasonType=
Percent passes completed:
Pennington 68.8%
Clemens 52%
16.8% differential in Pennington's favour. Very significant I'd say.
Yards per attempt:
Pennington 6.8
Clemens 6.1
0.7 yards per attempt differential in Pennington's favour. Again quite significant.
TD percentage
Pennington 3.8%
Clemens 2%
Pennington threw almost twice as many TDs per pass attempt. MASSIVE differential in Pennington's favour.
INT percentage
Pennignton 3.5%
Clemens 4%
Not quite so huge of a differential in Pennington's favour, but still significant.
By your own measuring standards... Pennington is clearly the better QB.
And just out of curiosity... as for QB rating
Pennington 86.1
Clemens 60.9
Now if you are a coach in the NFL and you have the choice between these two QBs... who do you start?
Rhetorical question.
You say that like it doesn't matter, but that's why he was benched midway through last season and why he was fighting for a starting job this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/08/sp...=1&oref=slogin
Quote:
Clemens posted a lower completion percentage (52 percent to 68.8 percent) and lower passer rating (60.9 to 86.1) than Pennington, and threw fewer touchdown passes (5 to 10) and more interceptions (10 to 9). But the Jets (4-12) won three games with Clemens as the starter and only one with Pennington.
...
As for Clemens, Tannenbaum said, “There are going to be some ups and downs, but there are some reasons to be encouraged.” He pointed to Clemens’s proficiency in leading two-minute drives and his performance in a win against the Dolphins.
If I am coach, who do I start...I start the guy who I think gives me the best chance to win. And if i am pretty sure the season is shot, I start the guy with the most upside. At least if am thats what i would do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
Also, don't make this a Pennington VS Clemons argument...they both suck. I am not defending Clemons and at know time showed any support or even mentioned him. This was about Penningtons noodle arm and thats it.
Obviously it mattered to whom was making the actual decision on who to start... the Jets coach (or management depending upon who you think calls the shots).Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDigital
Like I said... decisions don't have to make sense (re: compare their individual stats).
The Jets just so happened to win more games under Clemen's. In SPITE of him... not BECAUSE of him.
We all know that football is a team game... maybe THE ultimate team game (at least in my own opinion). A lot of emphasis gets put on the QB and his production. But I think that there were probably many other factors (re: running game, defense, etc.) in the Jets winning more games under Clemens than under Pennington.
I know who I'd be starting if I had the choice between the two...
Who'd you start?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
I would go hunting for a QB ASAP if thats what i had to choose from. Oh wait the Jets did too.
I don't even have the slighest knowledge of NY Jets QBs, so it doesn't matter who I would start. I'd defer to the judgement of the guy who watched them play every single day, who watched endless amounts of game film and knew what he was looking for when watching them perform.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
Delegation, I'm good at it.
Well you won't answer the question, so I will... you start Pennington over Clemens. At least based off the most current data that you have on the two.Quote:
Originally Posted by md1198p
This makes sense too. But does anyone actually believe that Clemens HAS an upside? Cause I sure don't...Quote:
And if i am pretty sure the season is shot, I start the guy with the most upside. At least if am thats what i would do.
Fair enough.Quote:
Also, don't make this a Pennington VS Clemons argument...they both suck. I am not defending Clemons and at know time showed any support or even mentioned him. This was about Penningtons noodle arm and thats it.
I just kept on hearing the "Well, the Jets decided to start the worst QB in the league over Pennington... so what does THAT say about Clemens?" arguement... Which was in some strange way trying to allude to the idea that Clemens is a better QB than Pennington. Which is ridiculous.
I have no illusions that Pennington will rescue the 'Phins this year. I have no illusion that Pennington is the 'Phins QB of the future.
What I DO know about Pennington is that he is a significant upgrade over the pathetic QBs that they have (anybody with the last name of "Lemon" should automatically NOT be your starting QB). So I am very happy with the upgrade... even if it's only a short term solution. I look forward to the 'Phins not looking as completely pathetic as they did last year (only "mostly" pathetic this year).
LOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDigital
There is a "cop out" if I've ever seen one...
Geez... here you have been making mention that the Jets went to Clemens over Pennington all this time... as if he was a better QB.
I was starting to think that you actually had an opinion on it! How'd I have got that crazy idea?
(rolls eyes)
Mangini saw them everyday. He had on opinion himself. Based off the ending stats, I don't trust his decision... his expertise in "who" the starting QB should be. I have my own opinion... based off the QBs stats.
I suspect that you do to... but have painted yourself into a corner and now refuse to give it.
NEVER have I seen you be shy about giving your opinion... until now. More than coincidental.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
Another stats you will probably try to pick apart, in noodle arms 9 starts, the Jets ran for 89.8 yards. In Clemons 7 starts they ran for 126.4. They where far more consistent also, only breaking 100 yards for Pennington 3 times out for 9, while doing it 5 times out of 7 while Clemons started.
One can interpret that a vast number of ways. It is a stat that can mean many things.Quote:
Originally Posted by md1198p
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank_Me_Hard
I am interpreting it to mean that teams did not stack the box like they do when Pennington played and the Jets had an easier time running. Their starts where both spread throughout the season, kinda mixed up. They also averaged a half a yard more per carry when Chad did not start.
That probably had a lot to do with the Jets winning more games when Clemons started.