Hey OpStar judging by the rigs in your sig you have no idea what having to choose between gaming and food/tuition is like. A couple of broke college kids downloading a few games isnt going to kill anyone. Get over it plz.
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Hey OpStar judging by the rigs in your sig you have no idea what having to choose between gaming and food/tuition is like. A couple of broke college kids downloading a few games isnt going to kill anyone. Get over it plz.
I worked my butt off through college and my last two years of high school and continue to work all kinds of hours for what I have. I work in retail and I routinely put in over 50 hours a week. The holiday season is coming up and it will just get worse. Last year on "Black Friday" I worked from 5:45am until 6pm nonstop, no break or lunch. Being poor isn't an excuse to break laws. You should be glad you are getting an education, a lot of people can't even afford those. I'd say gaming should be the least of your concerns.Quote:
Originally posted by yoLNEr
Hey OpStar judging by the rigs in your sig you have no idea what having to choose between gaming and food/tuition is like. A couple of broke college kids downloading a few games isnt going to kill anyone. Get over it plz.
HOW DARE you judge me by my possessions?
I'm not telling anyone to do it or not to do it, I'm simply saying its illegal, which it is, doing so is stealing, which it is, and stealing makes you a thief, which it does.
Asmox - there is no "kind of" illegal. Laws are black and white. Educate yourself, and then argue with me. You can argue ethics and morals all you want, but not the law. Its illegal, get over it.
Perhaps it would benefit you to read the discussion before posting. Whether it hurts anyone is not the point. We are discussing the legality of it.Quote:
Originally posted by yoLNEr
Hey OpStar judging by the rigs in your sig you have no idea what having to choose between gaming and food/tuition is like. A couple of broke college kids downloading a few games isnt going to kill anyone. Get over it plz.
There was a post not too long ago about distributors causing the most loss in revenue for game developers, not software pirates. The article was written by a game dev and was one of the best reads Ive had in a long time. Whether or not you are causing the company to lose money isn't the issue. The issue is, as I stated in the beginning, that it is illegal to download software without paying for it. As opstar has said in a rougher manner, it doesnt matter why youre doing it, or what you do 5 seconds later, you are not legaly allowed to pirate.
Speaking of illegal:
http://news.com.com/Justice+Dept.+wa...l?tag=nefd.top
"They could be proposing here the greatest mass criminalization of conduct by otherwise law-abiding citizens since Prohibition," Corwin said. "Congress should think long and hard before they treat noncommercial infringement by ordinary citizens...the same as prosecutions of organized crime."
The 1998 law should stay intact, the Justice Department says, arguing that the law should prevent "deliberate and unauthorized circumvention."
They are also trying to be able to civally sue people who pirate copyrighted material.
http://news.com.com/Senate+OKs+antip...33.html?tag=nl
"The U.S. Senate on Friday overwhelmingly approved a controversial proposal that would let federal prosecutors file civil lawsuits against suspected copyright infringers, with fines reaching tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars."
Makes 50 bucks sound cheap, doesn't it?
"File swappers concerned about getting in trouble with record labels over illegal downloads may soon have a major new worry: the U.S. Department of Justice."
"Under a 1997 law called the No Electronic Theft Act, federal prosecutors can file criminal charges against peer-to-peer users who make a large number of songs available for download. A July 2002 letter from prominent congressmen to U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft urged the prosecution of Americans who "allow mass copying from their computer over peer-to-peer networks."
"The RIAA's Glazier said: "The idea was to give prosecutors the flexibility to decide whether to bring a civil case against somebody. Giving them a criminal fine with a criminal record was viewed as a fairly harsh penalty for the activity...You're still committing a crime. But (prosecutors) are given a flexible remedy so there's some proportionality."
http://news.com.com/Perspective%3A+T...html?tag=st.rn
This last link is my favorite though, it has a nice quote right on top:
"If you've ever used a peer-to-peer network and swapped copyrighted files, chances are pretty good you're guilty of a federal felony."
I would think that a "federal felony" is pretty illegal, eh?
"It doesn't matter if you've forsworn Napster, uninstalled Kazaa and now are eagerly padding the record industry's bottom line by snapping up $15.99 CDs by the cartload.
Be warned--you're what prosecutors like to think of as an unindicted federal felon.
I'm not joking. A obscure law called the No Electronic Theft (NET) Act that former U.S. President Bill Clinton signed in 1997 makes peer-to-peer (P2P) pirates liable for $250,000 in fines and subject to prison terms of up to three years. (You may want to read it, since you'll likely be hearing more about it soon.)"
"This odd delay is not because peer-to-peer piracy is legal. It's not."
"The law even grants copyright holders the right to hand a "victim impact statement" to the judge at your trial, meaning you can expect an appearance from the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA), the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA) or the Business Software Alliance (BSA), depending on what kind of files were on your hard drive. You'll no longer have that hard drive, of course, because it'll have been seized by the FBI, and you'll be in jail."
"There does have to be some kind of a public message that stealing is stealing is stealing," said Malcolm, who oversees the arm of the Justice Department that prosecutes copyright and computer crime cases."
"For its part, the RIAA sent me a statement on Friday that seems to back that up: "We are in constant communication with various law enforcement agencies about all forms of piracy. It's illegal, and there clearly is an important role that law enforcement can play...It's important to remember that a 'Kazaa user' trafficking in copyrighted music without permission is doing something that is clearly illegal, as numerous courts have held that uploading and downloading copyrighted works without permission constitutes direct infringement. And it is well-established that copyright infringement can be a federal crime, so government enforcement seems perfectly appropriate."
"The NET Act works in two ways: In general, violations are punishable by one year in prison, if the total value of the files exceeds $1,000; or, if the value tops $2,500, not more than five years in prison. Also, if someone logs on to a file-trading network and shares even one MP3 file without permission in "expectation" that others will do the same, full criminal penalties kick in automatically."
So 20 games at 50 bucks a pop could nab you a year in prison.
"In 2001, a 21-year-old Michigan man named Brian Baltutat was successfully prosecuted under the NET Act for posting a mere 142 software programs on the "Hacker Hurricane" Web site. Jason Spatafore, 25, pleaded guilty to posting just one movie on the Web--"Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace"--in December 2000.
A quick check of Kazaa on Friday afternoon showed that there were 4.1 million users online, sharing some 800 million files. The odds of any specific person getting busted are pretty low, but someone's going to be a test case. Got your lawyer ready?"
Ok.
That takes care of that. No more arguing on whether or not it is illegal or stealing; its both.
Thank you.
So if I keep it at 19 I should be ok? heheheh jkingQuote:
Originally posted by OpStar
So 20 games at 50 bucks a pop could nab you a year in prison.
Either way I think both sides are yelling at a wall. Neither of you are going to change the others mind so both might as well quit now.
Regardless of what you do...remeber that there are concequences (good and bad) for every action. So when you make your choice just be prepared for them.
I don't have one thing against people who pirate...what I have problem with is the problems they are causing because of it.
1. I can no longer simply backup my software.
2. I can no longer simply move it to another machine (i.e. windows).
3. I can no longer make "fair use" copies of my music and videos w/o worrying about the RIAA and MPAA coming down my throat.
So even if you ignore the fact of "stealing/theft", the people who "steal/pirate" are making my life a PITA when it comes to things I own. So before you think you are "putting it to the man" you are also "putting it to everyone who obeys the law".
Really though. I dare you to go to you parents and say "Mom and dad...sice you don't give me enough money to buy movies/games/music I have been downloading them illegally over the internet. It doesn't bother me that I may put this family into financial ruin or I am blatantly telling you that all the effort you have done trying to raise me into a good and honest citizen has failed. My need for instant gratification is more important."
-tReP
looool. i've been agreeing with you about its inherent illegality in the last few posts, so i'm not sure why you keep trying to push your overpowering conviction that it's illegal on me.Quote:
Originally posted by OpStar
...
that one made me giggle though.Quote:
"The law even grants copyright holders the right to hand a "victim impact statement" to the judge at your trial, meaning you can expect an appearance from the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA), the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA) or the Business Software Alliance (BSA), depending on what kind of files were on your hard drive. You'll no longer have that hard drive, of course, because it'll have been seized by the FBI, and you'll be in jail."
you can post all the articles and laws that exist on this wonderful place we call the interweb, but you will never find anything that tells me that by doing the equivalent of borrowing an album from a friend and listening through it before going out and buying it is stealing. nothing, ever (well you might if you look hard enough, but i really doubt it). the act of downloading the media is considered illegal, yeah, i figured we'd be past that by now since i've agreed to it; but the end result is exactly the same as if you were to go to your local sam goody and listen through one of the demo cd's that they have up before deciding whether or not to buy it.
i don't see what's so hard to understand.. that's not a legal, or moral, or ethical issue. that's purely a common sense issue. there is NO thievery going on.
yeah, sure, i'll do that.. just for you, i will. maybe it'll get rid of that irresistible urge within you to paste a giant "IT'S ILLEGAL" sticker across my monitor because your reading comprehension skills aren't up to par.Quote:
Originally posted by OpStar
Educate yourself
now, just so we don't go over the same points again, and especially so i don't have to go through another lifetime of schooling to educate myself AGAIN, read with me: downloading copyrighted media is illegal; it is stealing if you keep the downloaded media with no intention of ever buying an original copy; it isn't stealing if you use it as a glorified try-before-you-buy, even if the company never intended there to be a TBYB for their product.. the methodology isn't exactly legal, but the end result is EXACTLY the same. you don't get away with anything for free - you either like it and go out and buy it, or you don't like and you trash it. NO STEALING.
for the record, i love you all.
looool. your need for broad generalization ruins the effect, avoid that in the future.Quote:
Originally posted by Trepidati0n
I am blatantly telling you that all the effort you have done trying to raise me into a good and honest citizen has failed. My need for instant gratification is more important.
yea i remember reading that, pretty informative article.Quote:
Originally posted by spamjedi
There was a post not too long ago about distributors causing the most loss in revenue for game developers, not software pirates. The article was written by a game dev and was one of the best reads Ive had in a long time.
OpStar is my pirate Hero,,, ARRHHHHH!
I will say this simple analogy.
I am going to go into a bank and "borrow" money.
I plan on paying them back when I am good and ready.
I just want to test out what money feels like.
If you want to reply pick up the phone and call 1-888-IDONTCARE.
-homerj31
congratulations, you have gained 5000 points of credibility.Quote:
Originally posted by homerj31
If you want to reply pick up the phone and call 1-888-IDONTCARE.
Asmox:
The act of downloading copyrighted material to your pc is illegal. Once you do that even if you go buy the CD/Game ten seconds later, it doesn't make it not illegal.
Period.
As soon as you have the copyrighted material on your pc w/o paying for it, you stole it.
Your reasoning is like "well I stole this cd from Wal-Mart but then I bought it from Target, so I'm not a thief".
Right, here I go...
I see this discussion as very important, as it is a snapshot of the world we live in and whether we get hung up on the exact wording of laws (and their creation) or use a bit of common sense.
(please forgive my limited No. of links, as time is limited)
A little background:
The RIAA (or its equivalent of the day) tried to ban tape recorders as it thought they would bankrupt the music industry. They even tried to ban radio for the same reasons – why would people buy music if they could listen to it for free on the radio (and even record it!!! (shock, horror :o) )
In the end the opposite happened, instead of reducing music revenue, it INCREASED sales as it helped expose more people to it, who thought “I like this, I’ll buy it”
The present day:
The RIAA has now been jumping up and down complaining again how these “new” forms of music piracy (mp3 downloads) are bankrupting the industry and how music sales are suffering, yet:
Taken from hereQuote:
- For the first quarter of 2003 Soundscan registered 147,000,000 records sold.
- For the 1st quarter of 2004 Soundscan will report 160,000,000 records sold.
That's 13,000,000 more units, almost a 10% increase in sales since last year. He also confessed that 1st quarter "album sales" (as opposed to overall sales) had increased 9.4% since 2003.
*Edit
There were decreases in sales around 2000 - 2001 for example, but though piracy may have had a factor it was a small one (in a round about way even admitted by the RIAA). Main factors in the sales decrease would be various economic ones and just maybe a decrease in new music releases of over 10,000 on previous years!!! (see this, first table)
Considering this, its remarkable that sales only dipped as little as they did - indicating an increase in the ratio of sales/releases. This also clearly shown in the table where in 2000, when total sales revenue started dropping, there were also 10,000 releases less. Yet dollers per release went up by $156,849.09
Basically it seems sales have been going UP since the advent of P2P file sharing!
*/Edit
So maybe my faith in humanity is partially restored by people like asmox who will obtain new music, listen to it, if liking it, will then buy it! The 9.4% increase in sales seem to back this up – I believe this is one of the biggest increases in music sales for some time, leading to the possible argument that music piracy has lead to a direct increase in music sales!!!
Sadly there are obviously people who will happily download their favorite music and NOT buy it (they too may later change their ways as they realize the impact of what they are doing), but as long enough people buy what they like of the music downloaded there should be a net increase (to a point) in music sales as people find more of what they like rather than just waiting to chance across something they like.
This is very good for newer, less well know artists, I know I would not (potentially) waste good money by buying music from unknown artists, but will TBYB in this pirated fashion and have thereby paid good money to artists I would never have otherwise known of. This has lead me to spend a LOT of money on music in the Psytrance genre.
The Point:
Yes downloading music via P2P is illegal, no one here is denying that.
The reason it is illegal is what we should really be looking at:
The RIAA (and other media groups) saw the potential of P2P to freely distribute music (and other media) to people who wouldn’t have to pay for it – add here a low opinion of people and forgetting what happened in the past (“A little background” above)- then you can see how inappropriate laws come about. Laws that perhaps should not exist. Imagine if after all radio had been banned and remained banned (sounds daft I know, but they tried this), I’ll wager the music industry would be a LOT smaller today and we would have a LOT less choice.
So basically laws have been created based on a knee jerk reaction from the request/pressuring of groups like the RIAA who have also tried to have perfectly legitimate businesses (P2P networks which hold no illegal files on central servers) closed down. (please accept this one, as it is currently legally so and does not need to be turned into another argument).
At the end of the day, if enough people like myself and asmox actually buy what they like, this “Piracy” may well save the media publishers millions of dollars in advertising! & become an accepted part of life, like radio and tape recorders did.
At the end of the day these groups are here to make money, when they see that P2P actually can increase sales, then it will be accepted like radio was.
People who have the “free” or pirated music & games do buy them
Between myself and a group of friends (about 8 of us) we all had a cracked d’loaded copy of Farcry, yet 5 of us after “trying“ this full copy of the game still liked it enough to go and buy it. We liked it, and wanted more quality games (music, programs etc, etc…) so we bought it to support the people creating products we like.
People aren’t on the whole (I have faith here) completely stupid. They can see that if they just stole electronic content and never bought it, people making the products would be prepared to invest much less time, effort and money or may not even bother to produce excellent products.
Please buy what you like and support the brilliant programmers and artists out there who enrich our lives so!
Ummm....
Hey, RMK... did you ever get your Half Life CD key successfully entered in Steam? Are you up and running Counterstrike yet?
It has been my overwhelming experience that people who pirate (including myself in the past) do not purchase anything they download for free. Aparently some people do, but I still think the vast majority of people dont.
Again this is illegal, and I am of the opinion that it should be illegal.
ok, i give up.. you have won me over with your overwhelming ignorance.Quote:
Originally posted by OpStar
Asmox:
The act of downloading copyrighted material to your pc is illegal. Once you do that even if you go buy the CD/Game ten seconds later, it doesn't make it not illegal.
Period.
Pailin - yeah, thanks.. you pretty much have it.
yeah, especially that. if it weren't for soulseek and a few good friends that are generous with their music, my collection would be extremely one-dimensional.Quote:
Originally posted by Pailin
This is very good for newer, less well know artists, I know I would not (potentially) waste good money by buying music from unknown artists, but will TBYB in this pirated fashion and have thereby paid good money to artists I would never have otherwise known of. This has lead me to spend a LOT of money on music in the Psytrance genre.