Graphing Calculators

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Originally posted by al bundy:
[B]I believe that what you probably mean by the "classic style" of test is already fast disappearing [B]

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Maybe in your ivory tower, not in the text I used or the high school I graduated from. Which, by the way is not some underfunded inner city school, it's actually one of the best public high schools in Minnesota. The books were new editions selected by the math department. And don't tell me I just got a bad teacher, because I didn't. As to the second point; don't pick at my words. I obviously meant mathematical problem solving skills, not general problem solving skills.
Thirdly, yes I meant homunculus, no I don't spell check my posts, and the key word was 'similar'. Meaning that generally speaking, calculators approximate integration with a summation rather than finding a perfect answer algebraically. I haven't taken any higher level math classes, so all that stuff you said means nothing to me. If you want to explain a concept to me, go ahead, but don't just list things to make yourself sound smarter. You're awfully arrogant for someone who thinks he knows so much about teaching.

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Originally posted by Milz:
Maybe in your ivory tower, not in the text I used or the high school I graduated from... And don't tell me I just got a bad teacher...

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You're original post up above wasn't really quite coherent there Milz, so I can only attempt to address whatever it is you're trying to say and hope I get close!

You might happen to notice that the majority of this thread is about college math education, and that is what I too am mainly discussing here. College isn't so much an "ivory tower" don't-cha-know... but you will find that college math education does in fact differ in very many important respects from K-12 education (or at least I hope you will eventually find that). If you're proud of your high school, well then good for you - but that doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with the issues of technology use in college-level math education, or anywhere else for that matter.

And although there are some behind-the-times math teachers out there, the issue with your situation specifically Milz isn't necessarily about whether your own prior teachers were bad or not... the issue here is the use of modern technology in math education, both now and in the future. Can't you see that's what we're actually talking about here? It appears you're heavily missing the point, and you might be having some trouble following along here.

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Originally posted by Milz:
...don't pick at my words... I obviously meant mathematical problem solving skills, not general problem solving skills...

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Well, of course you (and all the rest of us) are referring to mathematical problem solving skills, rather than just general-level problem solving skills... I don't even know *** you're talking about Milz when you try to clarify that point.

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Originally posted by Milz:
...generally speaking, calculators approximate integration with a summation rather than finding a perfect answer algebraically...I haven't taken any higher level math classes, so all that stuff you said means nothing to me...don't just list things to make yourself sound smarter. You're awfully arrogant for someone who thinks he knows so much about teaching.

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Milz, when people list things it doesn't imply they are trying to make themselves look smarter... maybe they are just giving you way too much credit toward understanding the answer. You had actually asked if calculators use a method similar to Riemann style summation to do a numerical approximation for an integral, don't you remember Milz? You didn't write-out the theory of Riemann-style integration, you just referred to the method by name. And my answer to you was no, those types of numerical routines are not generally used internally anymore by modern calculators, certain others (not so similar to the Riemann-style approach) are more often used now instead - followed by a short list that I gave you of some of those other methods, referring to them by name. It's not my fault if the answer was over your head Milz, and no I'm obviously not going to take the time and space here to carefully explain to you all the gory-details of what those other numerical routines involve. You're going to have to be content with a reasonable answer here in this forum. If your current level of education doesn't allow the answer to mean anything to you right now, then that's your problem at this moment Milz. I guess you will just have to either look them up, or else knuckle-down and take some college-level mathematics courses if you want to become educated on what those other numerical routines for integration are all about. This is not the place for you to get that education.

Edit: In addition to becoming confused easily and needing to learn how to spell without a spell-checker, I think one of your main difficulties Milz is that you mistake arrogance with the tone someone takes who really does know what they're talking about. You really should try hard to get over that, if you ever want to make any real progress. Maybe if you ever actually do any mathematics teaching, then you will become qualified to talk about it too! Until that ever happens, however, you desperately need to become more receptive to those ideas that may differ from your own but are coming from somebody with a more experienced perspective than yours. Good luck with that, I do hope you will be able to achieve it! https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/6.gif

[This message has been edited by al bundy (edited August 24, 2001).]

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Originally posted by al bundy:
college math education does in fact differ in very many important respects from K-12 education (or at least I hope you will eventually find that).

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Actually, the course I took at my high school was AP, which is college level, and I recieved credit for it at my current school. I have been told that AP is generally more difficult than equivalent college classes. I think that probably my experience with basic calc was better than what most people will get, and I'm using my experience to illustrate the point that the majority of the world may not be as advanced in their teaching techniques as you believe.

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Originally posted by al bundy:
clarify that point.

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Your previous response was that everyone needs problem solving skills, but you said earlier there were some problem solving techniques that were only important to mathematicians, and not practical in the rest of the world. I was referring only to those, not the ones that everyone needs.

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Originally posted by al bundy:
I'm obviously not going to take the time and space here to carefully explain to you all the gory-details of what those other numerical routines involve.

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I didn't ask you to. I referred to a technique by name because it was already established that you were familiar with a level of math higher than that. I asked a question, which implies that I am not. Therefore you should have known that it wouldn't be useful to me for you to list all that. If you had mentioned one or two things then yes, I would probably go look them up, but that sounded like a whole course or two worth of knowledge, which I'm obviously not going to go learn right now. As to 'knuckling down' maybe you should know something about a person before you start making implications about his work ethic. I will be taking more math classes, but my schedule for this semester is full.

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Originally posted by al bundy:
Maybe if you ever actually do any mathematics teaching, then you will become qualified to talk about it too! Until that ever happens, however, you desperately need to become more receptive to those ideas that may differ from your own but are coming from somebody with a more experienced perspective than yours. Good luck with that, I do hope you will be able to achieve it!

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I'm touched that you're so interested in my personal development. You're saying that because I've never taught a math class that I'm not qualified to talk about it? And you say I'm unreceptive? You have no reason to say I'm 'easily confused' I consider that to be a personal attack, far off topic, and completly unqualified.
If you really aren't arrogant, then maybe you need to think about your word choice a little more. Also criticizing me for a simple speliling mistake, and saying that no one else's opinion is even worth considering doesn't make you sound any better.

I'm sick of this, we've digressed too far from the topic to get back to it, even without the adversarial tone we've taken up. I'd appreciate it if a moderator would shut this thread down.

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Originally posted by Milz:
Actually, the course I took at my high school was AP... I have been told that AP is generally more difficult than equivalent college classes.

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You were probably misled there Milz. Take some college calculus courses for comparison, you'll see firsthand! You're not in a position to make that assessment yet.

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Originally posted by Milz:
Your previous response was that everyone needs problem solving skills, but you said earlier there were some problem solving techniques that were only important to mathematicians, and not practical in the rest of the world. I was referring only to those, not the ones that everyone needs.

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But the point you were missing is that both sets of problem-solving skills I've referred to - those that are important only to mathematicians, as well as those math skills that are important to non-mathematicians - are still mathematical skills, regardless. Thus, they are entirely relevant here to the discussion here on the use of technology in math education. Get it?

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Originally posted by Milz:
I referred to a technique by name because it was already established that you were familiar with a level of math higher than that. I asked a question, which implies that I am not. Therefore you should have known that it wouldn't be useful to me for you to list all that... that sounded like a whole course or two worth of knowledge, which I'm obviously not going to go learn...

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LOL - that's funny! https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/08/2.gif So, you're willing to ask a question about something you don't know about - but then you whine like that if you get a complete answer to your question, which includes target-areas for your further education. Hilarious! https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/4.gif You really shouldn't get so intimidated Milz when a direct answer includes a list of items you must learn more about in order for you to more fully understand the answer to your question. Sheesh! https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/4.gif

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Originally posted by Milz:
I will be taking more math classes, but my schedule for this semester is full...

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Good, there's hope! You'll need to address that whining problem though - none of your math teachers are going to appreciate that... https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/6.gif

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Originally posted by Milz:
You're saying that because I've never taught a math class that I'm not qualified to talk about it? And you say I'm unreceptive?

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Yes, and yes. I know that looks like a list, try not to get nervous... take deep breaths... https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/4.gif

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Originally posted by Milz:
You have no reason to say I'm 'easily confused'

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You bet I have a reason... just look at your above posts! https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/4.gif

[This message has been edited by al bundy (edited August 24, 2001).]

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Originally posted by Milz:
Also criticizing me for a simple speliling mistake, and saying that no one else's opinion is even worth considering doesn't make you sound any better.

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Relax man! I wasn't criticizing you about your spelling mistakes, I was just joking about them with you. https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/6.gif And I never said that "no one else's opinion is even worth considering"... you just made that up, didn't you Milz? Everyone's opinion is worth considering, just not always are their opinions worth accepting. You really should know that Milz - and you should also learn to be much more receptive when someone with more experience than you have on a topic disagrees with you. It will definitely help you to learn more.

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Originally posted by Milz:
I'm sick of this, we've digressed too far from the topic to get back to it, even without the adversarial tone we've taken up.

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More whining. Geez Milz, can't you see that this thread had digressed far from the original topic long before you entered it! And I disagree, the tone is not adversarial - but at times the tones are distinctly not in agreement. Reasonable people often disagree, and that is not only OK but also is good for the discussion. If you don't like the discussion here Milz, than leave and stay out of the thread.

I trust the moderator Klashe. If this thread does get closed, than I certainly won't be heartbroken about it and I think we'll all understand. After all, it does get a bit redundant to have the same things getting repeated so frequently in the discussion. But if it doesn't get closed, then I might like to pop-in every now and then to see the new opinions being expressed... https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/6.gif

[This message has been edited by al bundy (edited August 24, 2001).]

Wow! You guys sure take your calculators seriously! Who knew that a topic this mundane would spark such a big debate? Amazing.

Hey, I didn't know Hewlett-Packard made graphing calculators:
http://www.hp.com/calculators/graphing/49g_info.html

bump!


I owe you this Al. Where's Mofo? What calc did he end up buying? I see Klashe put in his vote for the HP. As did I.

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Originally posted by Milz:
I've never heard of a TI-89 not being allowed where other calculators are. The only grounds I know of for restricting a calculator are a QWERTY keyboard or an IR port, and the ones with an IR are usually allowed if the port is covered with tape. AlBundy is probably right that the 92 is gaining more acceptance, but I would buy an 89 anyway, just to be safe. One huge advantage of an 89 over the 86 or 83 is that it can use mathematical symbols for just about everything, this is particularily useful for calc 1 and 2. It's nice to be able to enter everything the way you see it in the book rather than translating it to TI commands first.

After you learn to do it the long way of course https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/5.gif

[This message has been edited by Milz (edited August 12, 2001).]

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Thats true, but also, in alot of college classes, you don't even get to use a calculator. I haven't touched a calculator (for classwork) in probably 3 years. Get used to doing it by hand...thats the moral of the story https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/08/2.gif.

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Originally posted by GARRIN19:
Hey, I didn't know Hewlett-Packard made graphing calculators:
http://www.hp.com/calculators/graphing/49g_info.html

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My first graphing calculator was a HP-48GX, it was 220 bucks and I got it in 8th grade I think. I hated RPN (a backward *** data entry method called reverse polish notation), but it was incredibly versatile, it could do everything from 3d graphing (which no calculator could do at the time) to measruing IR levels in a room upto controlling a TV. It had its fair share of games too. Sadly I broke the LCD when it was in my backpack one day because of the softcase.

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umm, my dad bought a TI 92.. its a nice calculator, kinda looks like my old SEGA GAME GEAR, lol. https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/08/2.gif

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Actually I find that Radio Shack sells a nice reliable product in the calculator catagory. I've owned my EC-4032 (Scientific Calculator) for 10 years and it works fine now.

What is the benchmark for graphing calculators? I don't have a trained eye for buyer beware issues, like the other hardcore's here.

well to start off, mofo probably already bought his calc, but i found the lowest prices on yahoo shopping. i still don't know if i made the right choice between a ti-89(cheaper) and a hp-49g(step by step).

now for the debate for the use or not to use a calc, i kinda agree with both sides. using a calc in my engineering classes allows me to focus on the concepts and not worry about the calculus they are based on, but in a calculus class i beleive it has the opposite effect. sure using a ti-83 can only benefit you during these types of math classes because its functions are limited, but then there are the big dogs- ti89/92 and hp 49g. these are designed to solve any type of problem you throw at them with minimal thought. i don't even know how teachers could design a class around these types of machines, like "al" said, and still keep the student learning. its like taking a spanish class and bringing in a handheld translator. in all the calc classes i've taken i've not been allowed to use a calculator on any exams. the prof. always said they were more interested in the work than the final answer.

Ack, my eyes started to glaze over after reading thru most of these posts.

Anyhow, I would vote for the TI-89. It will probably do everything you need it to do.

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Is the TI89 really worth the extra $30-40? I'm entering as a Biological Sciences major and I dunno if I ought to shell out the extra dough...I don't think i'll be taking a lot of the harder/advanced Math courses

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If it is worth anything my undergrad is a BS in Biology, so I was in the same boat as you and I got thru the first half of college on a TI-82 then on a TI-89; you would have to pry that calculator from my cold dead hand before I would give it up.

Now I work as a chemist and that TI-89 gets me thru my job just fine. Hell I don't use most of the functions. Then again I really didn't care for calculus so I like the funcions that calculator provides.

But just my little opinion on mathematics; well calculus to be specific: I think it is really important to know and be instructed on the basic principles but for all practicality there is no reason to actually integrate huge *** peaks without a calculator.
For instance at my job all of the data that I work with come from chromatography peaks that are integrated (well not quite that easily but just to keep things simple) and the computer does that for me. It would take forever even to use a handheld calculator; and for all intents and purposes be impossible to do by hand. So, guess my point is that in the 'real world' setting, or at least in my 'real world' there is no need to do hand integration or differentiation
Hell I don't think I could differentiate anything besides an exponent.

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