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So you proved nVidia has just as good IQ. Isn't ATI still faster when displaying high IQ?Quote:
Originally posted by OpStar
Ackmed thank you for helping me to prove my point.
Still, maybe this will put to rest the claims that ATI has superior IQ overall.
I never once said nVidia was FASTER I said the IQ between the two were a mute point.
Yes I know, but one of the things you said is you couldn't understand why people won't buy the 5950 right now (or whatever card it was). The reason is you can get the same IQ with higher FPS for slightly more (9700 or 9800).Quote:
Originally posted by OpStar
I never once said nVidia was FASTER I said the IQ between the two were a mute point.
Also I think you meant to say moot.
I'd also like to add that when people say ATI's IQ is better, perhaps they mean:
ATI has better IQ with acceptable performance.
What good is nVidia's IQ if you can't use it b/c the performance is horrible??? You know?
Nvidia > ATI
yAY! :D
I did mean moot, thank you.Quote:
Originally posted by Paladyr
Yes I know, but one of the things you said is you couldn't understand why people won't buy the 5950 right now (or whatever card it was). The reason is you can get the same IQ with higher FPS for slightly more (9700 or 9800).
Also I think you meant to say moot.
I'd also like to add that when people say ATI's IQ is better, perhaps they mean:
ATI has better IQ with acceptable performance.
What good is nVidia's IQ if you can't use it b/c the performance is horrible??? You know?
I said I didn't understand why people bought the 9700 Pro over the 5900 Non Ultra. I seriously doubt that the 9700 Pro has any significant performance lead over the 5900 Non Ultra, no matter the aa/af level or rez used, and it costs more.
As for your last statement, I think my last statement covers it.
I agree with Paladyr.
Btw, OpS, when you said that you had three different setups. Generally that term is used to refer to hardware setups. Rather than the differences that you showed between changes in software settings.
No no no, it was assumed by some to be the case.Quote:
Originally posted by Vizer
I agree with Paladyr.
Btw, OpS, when you said that you had three different setups. Generally that term is used to refer to hardware setups. Rather than the differences that you showed between changes in software settings.
Huh? The screenshots you took for the comparison were 1024x768 and medium quality, right?Quote:
Originally posted by OpStar
If I can do higher quality than 1600x1200x32 @ 4xaa 8xansio @ very high settings (6xaa 16xansio on 9800XT) on an nVidia card let me know.
Very, very, very much so.Quote:
So you proved nVidia has just as good IQ. Isn't ATI still faster when displaying high IQ?
The 9700p is 20% faster in UT2003 and 32% faster in Nascar Thunder 2004 than a 5950U. You don't even want to know how much faster the 9700p is than the 5900nu.Quote:
I said I didn't understand why people bought the 9700 Pro over the 5900 Non Ultra. I seriously doubt that the 9700 Pro has any significant performance lead over the 5900 Non Ultra, no matter the aa/af level or rez used, and it costs more.[bold added]
The FSAA poll I posted had a purpose: it shows that people are more inclined to use FSAA and AF if they own an ATI card than if they own an Nvidia card. Whether thats a cause or an effect isn't really relevent: in practice ATI has better image quality than Nvidia because you can use the eye candy more on an ATI card than an Nvidia card.
I also think a lot of people (you) aren't being honest with themselves about the difference - someone who buys an Nvidia card because of the non-aa/af benchmarks and 3dmark and then uses aa/af in games is fooling himself.
Like I said before - ATI has the biggest performance lead any company has had since 3dfx was alone in the industry.
Ok, but which card can run the game with decent performance when all this detail is turned up? This is where the big difference comes in...Quote:
Originally posted by OpStar
I never once said nVidia was FASTER I said the IQ between the two were a mute point.
-Ryan
GENERALLY doesn't constitute always.Quote:
Originally posted by Vizer
I agree with Paladyr.
Btw, OpS, when you said that you had three different setups. Generally that term is used to refer to hardware setups. Rather than the differences that you showed between changes in software settings.
You can say what you want SIR but I game on BOTH high end cards currently available ON THE MARKET with the same IQ settings.Quote:
Originally posted by russ_watters
Huh? The screenshots you took for the comparison were 1024x768 and medium quality, right? Very, very, very much so. The 9700p is 20% faster in UT2003 and 32% faster in Nascar Thunder 2004 than a 5950U. You don't even want to know how much faster the 9700p is than the 5900nu.
The FSAA poll I posted had a purpose: it shows that people are more inclined to use FSAA and AF if they own an ATI card than if they own an Nvidia card. Whether thats a cause or an effect isn't really relevent: in practice ATI has better image quality than Nvidia because you can use the eye candy more on an ATI card than an Nvidia card.
I also think a lot of people (you) aren't being honest with themselves about the difference - someone who buys an Nvidia card because of the non-aa/af benchmarks and 3dmark and then uses aa/af in games is fooling himself.
Like I said before - ATI has the biggest performance lead any company has had since 3dfx was alone in the industry.
Kthx.
I respect the UT benchmark but c'mon Nascar Thunder 2004? Please...
While I'm sure there are lots of Nascar enthusiasts, I can come up with some titles where nV is at least 20% faster.
That isn't the point. MY POINT WAS THAT NVIDIA AND ATI OFFER COMPARABLE IQ.
Nothing at all was said about speed.
IN FACT, I explicity said that for IQ fps wasn't important, AND I said that my ATi card was faster.
Kthx.
I also posted High Quality shots when they were requested, and none of you commented on them, OR on the IQ differences of Ackmed's shots.
All you did was turn this IQ discussion into a frame rate discussion because ATi is faster so therefore the fact that both companies offer the same IQ is irrelevant somehow (it isn't).
You guys can call me a fanboy all you want, just do so while looking in a mirror.
Heh, you guys didn't have a problem with this statement UNTIL AFTER Ackmed proved that IQ between a 5900NU and an ATi 9800XT were ALMOST IDENTICAL.Quote:
Originally posted by OpStar
PS - I'll tell you my FPS later, as that has little to do with IQ. I will tell you as far as a brand new DX9 game goes, it was pretty playable in all those ss.
NOW, all of the sudden its about frame rate.
Which is it, frame rate, or IQ?
DOES A 5900 NON ULTRA AND A 9800XT HAVE COMPARABLE IQ: YES.
CAN YOU PLAY WITH A 5900NU AT HIGH IQ SETTINGS AND ACHIEVE THE SAME FRAME RATE AS A 9800XT: NO
Which conversation are we having?
NOW I suppose I have to buy a 9700 Pro, considering my ENTIRE RANT was between a 5900NU and a 9700 Pro.
I swear, you people make me laugh.
We were having a total IQ discussion, and now its about IQ/FPS because someone proved that nV's IQ is ALMOST IDENTICAL to ATi's.
*looks*
Ok, for a second there I thought I was on Rage3D.
Yes I did, I said they look just as good.Quote:
Originally posted by OpStar
I also posted High Quality shots when they were requested, and none of you commented on them, OR on the IQ differences of Ackmed's shots.
Still, like I said, what good is equal IQ if you are getting 20FPS compared to 50???? I just pulled those numbers out of my bootie though.
Ok Opstar - the point has been proven that IQ differences between ATI and Nvidia CAN be reduced to a few pixels under a magnifying glass. However, as was demonstrated in these examples, the Nvidia hardware had to be forced to use PS 2.0 in order to achieve these results.
Ok, your point has been proven about IQ when considered only by itself.
But come on now... When people say "ATI has better IQ than Nvidia", they're not segregating IQ from performance. Pound for pound, ATI typically delivers better IQ at faster frame rates than Nvidia. This is why people will recommend a 9700Pro over a 5900NU. Sure, you can make them look nearly the same, but one is going to run faster. How much is that worth? It's up to the person.
-Ryan
It's up to the person, thank you.
BTW, Ackmed wasn't using PS 2.0 in his screenshots ;)
I did that, not him.
Did we ever get to see whether or not PS2.0 made a difference for nVidia (mixed mode vs full quality)??? What did we determine, is mixed mode okay?Quote:
Originally posted by OpStar
It's up to the person, thank you.
BTW, Ackmed wasn't using PS 2.0 in his screenshots ;)
I did that, not him.
I saw no difference using PS 2.0, not even on the pipes.
In Ackmed's screenshots comparing his 5900NU (flashed to 5950 Ultra) and his 9800XT he is using mixed mode, and I can't tell the difference.
I can't see a difference whatsoever but I rather would see a true 5950 take it up against the 9800XT, as otherwise that would not be a fair comparison as well on the hardware side (referring to ackmeds screenshots)
I'm sure that with the next gen cards, performance wise we will have hit a more even picture.
great Idea Opstar, really great idea
So who here has a real 5950u who wants to donate their time? :D
I do, that's what my HQ pics are.
The low fps are 5950 Ultra and the higher fps are 9800XT.
Well, to be honest, your comparison wasn't very informative. In a side by side comparison (thanks Ackmed) I could certainly tell a difference in AA quality between the 9800 and 5900. Especially in the scene with the scope zoomed on the oil rig, it is very apparent. Take a look at the support lines on nvda :eek: (gross). In most places in these pictures the difference is not as big, but unfortunately, in motion I like ATI's AA way better than nvidia's. It is not quite as bad as 4xAA vs. 2xAA, but the difference is there. But the fact that ATI is nearly twice as fast with BETTER IQ (whether or not you think so is irrelevent) makes it superior. There is no ambiguity in the statement that the 9800 series smokes the 5900 series in Far Cry. And yes, the 9700pro is a better card in many cases than the 5900nu. Proof? Here is a little dosage:Quote:
Originally posted by OpStar
You can say what you want SIR but I game on BOTH high end cards currently available ON THE MARKET with the same IQ settings.
Kthx.
I respect the UT benchmark but c'mon Nascar Thunder 2004? Please...
While I'm sure there are lots of Nascar enthusiasts, I can come up with some titles where nV is at least 20% faster.
That isn't the point. MY POINT WAS THAT NVIDIA AND ATI OFFER COMPARABLE IQ.
Nothing at all was said about speed.
IN FACT, I explicity said that for IQ fps wasn't important, AND I said that my ATi card was faster.
Kthx.
I also posted High Quality shots when they were requested, and none of you commented on them, OR on the IQ differences of Ackmed's shots.
All you did was turn this IQ discussion into a frame rate discussion because ATi is faster so therefore the fact that both companies offer the same IQ is irrelevant somehow (it isn't).
You guys can call me a fanboy all you want, just do so while looking in a mirror.
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/...view/page5.asp
The 5900nu loses in:
Nascar (except in 1600 the 5900nu wins by 1%) , Il2 (33% at 1600), Serious Sam (by up to 14% at 1600, though it loses at 800*600 by 4%), Quake 3 (by up to 15%), and other tests. In some cases with AA and AF enabled the 5900nu is faster due to sheer bandwith. Props to nvidia there. In fact, Nvidia wins many dx8/dx7 tests. But how about in dx9? Ah yes, there it takes the biggest beating.
I know it loses in DX9 kthx.
You aren't showing me a review I haven't read by the way either.
But, um, thanks?
I don't need to take side by side screenshots.
I like making people DECIDE which is which ::gasp::
Go figure, eh?
Please do: I didn't put much effort into looking for benchmarks, the Tom's article is about the most commonly cited one on the subject. Can you show me one where an NV is 20% faster with AF/AA enabled?Quote:
Originally posted by OpStar
I respect the UT benchmark but c'mon Nascar Thunder 2004? Please...
While I'm sure there are lots of Nascar enthusiasts, I can come up with some titles where nV is at least 20% faster.
D-E-N-I-A-LWhat comment is needed besides the HQ shots look light years better than the medium quality shots? Several people (including me) said that. I focused on your deception becaus thats what annoyed me.Quote:
I also posted High Quality shots when they were requested, and none of you commented on them, OR on the IQ differences of Ackmed's shots.
Well, when the comparison is dishonest, we're gonna nitpick you when we find out. Tough. -and conversations evolve. If we had immediately flagged you on theh fps issue after your first post, you'd have been pissed. It doesn't mean we didn't think it was relevant at the time, just that we stayed with your question as it was posed. Thats called being polite. I'll remember you said this though: from now on, every time you mention an Nvidia card, I'll be there to remind you its far behind the equivalent level ATI card.Quote:
Heh, you guys didn't have a problem with this statement UNTIL AFTER Ackmed proved that IQ between a 5900NU and an ATi 9800XT were ALMOST IDENTICAL.
You don't see how the second question is related to and absolutely essential to the context of question one? You asked the first question and we tried to answer it. We got to the second question later becauase we wanted to see what your point was.Quote:
DOES A 5900 NON ULTRA AND A 9800XT HAVE COMPARABLE IQ: YES.
CAN YOU PLAY WITH A 5900NU AT HIGH IQ SETTINGS AND ACHIEVE THE SAME FRAME RATE AS A 9800XT: NO
Which conversation are we having?
:confused: :confused: We stipulated to this point verrry early in the conversation. There isn't anything else to discuss except your implication that because the image quality is equal the cards are on equal footing. They are most certainly not.Quote:
We were having a total IQ discussion, and now its about IQ/FPS because someone proved that nV's IQ is ALMOST IDENTICAL to ATi's.
Yeah, go figure: 'which is better: this nvidia, this nvidia, or this nvidia?' 'See, just as good as ATI!' Um, yeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh.....Quote:
I don't need to take side by side screenshots.
I like making people DECIDE which is which ::gasp::
Go figure, eh?
Ok, as I admitted, I didn't put a lot of effort into looking. In my defense though, I was comparing an obsolte/discontinued ATI offering to Nvidia's current top of the line - not easy to find good comparisons, and not exactly a fair comparison either. So HERE is a more extensive comparison of the 5950U and the 9800xt. And I found a test where the 5950U is 20% faster than the 9800xt with af/aa enabled: Jedi Knight at 1280x1024 - 24.4%. So there you go - you can have that one. The article tests 11 games, and in 4, the 5950U is faster even with AF/AA enabled. Those would be the GL games. Including those, the 9800xt is on average 18.5% faster. Thats still an awful lot, but I found a scenario under which I'd recommend an Nvidia card: if you're exclusively an OpenGL game player. Otherwise...Quote:
Originally posted by russ_watters
Please do: I didn't put much effort into looking for benchmarks, the Tom's article is about the most commonly cited one on the subject. Can you show me one where an NV is 20% faster with AF/AA enabled?
I'll do midrange cards tonight - there, its a little closer.
By midrange if you mean the 5700U and the 9600XT they are almost identical.Quote:
Originally posted by russ_watters
I'll do midrange cards tonight - there, its a little closer.
You know, you aren't really saying anything I haven't said.
I admit freely that ATi is faster at DX9.
I admit freely that ATi has faster AA (quality is a matter of opinion at this point).
I'm well aware that OpenGL games are faster on the nVidia platform.
I wasn't attempting to be dishonest at all, it was taken that way.
I said three setups, and I did say ati/nV in my posts.
My entire point of the first post was that I could post 3 sets of screenshots from an nV card @ different settings and people would conclude that one set was ATi simply becuase I own an ATi card.
You can call it deception if you will, but its really just like a "pepsi challenge".
If you have a pepsi challenge w/o coke and people guess that ONE is coke, they are in fact telling themselves one is because they WANT to like a different product better.
The entire reason I wasn't bringing FPS up as an issue is because this whole discussion would be retarded to have.
ATi = faster with AA/AF enabled in almost every scenario.
I play 10x7 so I can play with a nV card @ 4x/8x and get away with it, but a lot of shark's play at higher resolutions and I realize this.
That I never said. I can't even realistically do that w/o making myself look like a fool, now can I?Quote:
I'll remember you said this though: from now on, every time you mention an Nvidia card, I'll be there to remind you its far behind the equivalent level ATI card.
The ONLY TIME I can do that is when comparing a 5700 Ultra to a 9600XT because their performance is essentially a draw from all the reviews I've read (published and web).
Have I made myself look like an *** before? YUP. Good for you for "showing me up".
Oh, btw:
Quote:
Please do: I didn't put much effort into looking for benchmarks, the Tom's article is about the most commonly cited one on the subject. Can you show me one where an NV is 20% faster with AF/AA enabled?
D-E-N-I-A-L
Thank you for saving me the trouble of looking that up (and making you look like an ***).Quote:
So HERE is a more extensive comparison of the 5950U and the 9800xt. And I found a test where the 5950U is 20% faster than the 9800xt with af/aa enabled: Jedi Knight at 1280x1024 - 24.4%. So there you go - you can have that one. The article tests 11 games, and in 4, the 5950U is faster even with AF/AA enabled. Those would be the GL games. Including those, the 9800xt is on average 18.5% faster. Thats still an awful lot, but I found a scenario under which I'd recommend an Nvidia card: if you're exclusively an OpenGL game player. Otherwise...
Anyways Russ, I suppose you've made your point :confused:
DON'T TRUST KENNETH THE NVIDIA GUY, HE MAKES US USE OUR BRAINS INSTEAD OF SPOON FEEDING US WHAT WE WANT TO HEAR.
You know, I only play a few DX games, most of mine are OpenGL ::gasp::
Weird, eh?