Except the separate set of laws for those with power or tons of money :)Quote:
Originally posted by Mancora
Laws dont define moral standards, laws reflect some moral standards.
Eric
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Except the separate set of laws for those with power or tons of money :)Quote:
Originally posted by Mancora
Laws dont define moral standards, laws reflect some moral standards.
Eric
Im not talking about that. I am talking about abusing the warranty of a product. If you smashed it and tossed it out fine, If you overclocked it and tossed it out fine...Quote:
Originally posted by mynameis
If I buy a processor, I could go smash it with a hammer, that would void the warranty but so long as I don't send it in trying to get a replacement, it doesn't matter.
So if I buy a processor, overclock it, break it, then throw it away. What would I get charged with?
Now if you smashed or overclock it to failure, and request an RMA. That is not fine :D
Either side is arugable. Duels used to be legal and a good way for people to get justice for moral wrongs commited... But a law making it illegal changed the moral standard for a duel being acceptable conduct... again debatable, however you look at it.Quote:
Originally posted by Mancora
Laws dont define moral standards, laws reflect some moral standards.
And it usually means someone is deprived of something they once had. This is not the case with "copying."Quote:
Originally posted by MrDigital
Stealing is wrong in every iota of existence and laws are based on that.
-MrD
Eric
So was throwing stones at people who were deemed "immoral" (which usually meant they had a different religion/heritage). I can see some people in here doing that :0Quote:
Originally posted by mansionman
Either side is arugable. Duels used to be legal and a good way for people to get justice for moral wrongs commited... But a law making it illegal changed the moral standard for a duel being acceptable conduct... again debatable, however you look at it.
Eric
I don't have it backwards. I just choose to look at it from a different perspective. As do many other people. Because something is said, does not make it fact.Quote:
Originally posted by MrDigital
Hahaha, laws define morals. Dude, morals define LAWS. You have it backwards.
Theft has been looked down upon since the days of the cavement. Try to take another man's food or wife and get a club over the head. Same thing in the animal world where laws have never existed.
Stealing is wrong in every iota of existence and laws are based on that.
-MrD
Yep, the bible says you should stone children to death for behaving badly. That would be considered WRONG today.Quote:
Originally posted by ewitte
So was throwing stones at people who were deemed "immoral" (which usually meant they had a different religion/heritage). I can see some people in here doing that :0
Eric
Wrong. That may be your definition, but not the legislatures (As I've stated before).Quote:
Originally posted by ewitte
And it usually means someone is deprived of something they once had. This is not the case with "copying."
Eric
Theft is not necessarily "depriving" someone of something they once had", but rather taking something that belongs to someone else, without permission.
If you don't have it backwards, explain how theft has been wrong for far longer than civilization and laws have existed? Explain how theft is wrong in the animal world where you will get your arse pummeled by whoever you try to take something from?Quote:
Originally posted by mansionman
I don't have it backwards. I just choose to look at it from a different perspective. As do many other people. Because something is said, does not make it fact.
There is no different perspective except the one permeated by theives trying to justify their actions.
Theft is wrong. It always has been and always will be.
-MrD
steal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (stl)
v. stole, (stl) sto·len, (stln) steal·ing, steals
v. tr.
To take (the property of another) without right or permission.
To get or effect surreptitiously or artfully: steal a kiss; stole the ball from an opponent.
To move, carry, or place surreptitiously.
To draw attention unexpectedly in (an entertainment), especially by being the outstanding performer: The magician's assistant stole the show with her comic antics.
Baseball. To advance safely to (another base) during the delivery of a pitch, without the aid of a base hit, walk, passed ball, or wild pitch.
My good man, it is EXACTLY the same thing. You buy and car and soup up the engine to make it faster, you circumvented buying the more expensive V6 or V8 engine offered by that company as an option. There is ZERO difference.Quote:
Originally posted by gurutoo
1st off, I didn't say jack about a car...
That is your interpretation. I expected people to make such a lame excuse, I just didn't expect it to be you.
If you buy an AMD 2500+ and overclock it to 3200+ speeds you have just circumented the retail channel for a 3200+ part and therefore you have ripped off AMD for the difference between the cost of the 2 processors. It's all about something for nothing...
Overclocking ain't screwing anybody but copying your DVD is?-yeah right.
Just because overclocking is "popular" out in the open here, doesn't give the practice any higher moral ground.
I paid for a processor that is guaranteed by the manufacturer to do 2GHz, but I managed to make it run faster. I'm simply doing something to a part I paid for legally. If I fry the chip from overclocking it, then I should buy a new chip, not RMA the part as a chip running at rated speed that failed. In that sense I am stealing because I am making the manufacturer pay for me not buying the more expensive chip to begin with. By the same token, no one is saying you can't add mods, cheats, or whatever else to the software that purchased, but at least purchase the software.
Exactly. Software piracy and OC'ing are in no way related. I don't understand how anyone could be trying to make that point?
"Taking" is the same thing as "depriving" :) Either way with a copy they still have exactly what the did before.Quote:
Originally posted by Matt_E
Wrong. That may be your definition, but not the legislatures (As I've stated before).
Theft is not necessarily "depriving" someone of something they once had", but rather taking something that belongs to someone else, without permission.
Eric
CHRIST ON A STICK! Not everything is right and wrong, you can't just lump things into catagories that make it convient for you to understand.Quote:
Originally posted by MrDigital
If you don't have it backwards, explain how theft has been wrong for far longer than civilization and laws have existed? Explain how theft is wrong in the animal world where you will get your arse pummeled by whoever you try to take something from?
There is no different perspective except the one permeated by theives trying to justify their actions.
Theft is wrong. It always has been and always will be.
-MrD
Theives don't have to justify their actions; rarley do they even think about their actions!
You are wrong! you always have and you always will be. Is that right?
I don't see anything here that refers to copies :)Quote:
Originally posted by Colossus
steal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (stl)
v. stole, (stl) sto·len, (stln) steal·ing, steals
v. tr.
To take (the property of another) without right or permission.
To get or effect surreptitiously or artfully: steal a kiss; stole the ball from an opponent.
To move, carry, or place surreptitiously.
To draw attention unexpectedly in (an entertainment), especially by being the outstanding performer: The magician's assistant stole the show with her comic antics.
Baseball. To advance safely to (another base) during the delivery of a pitch, without the aid of a base hit, walk, passed ball, or wild pitch.
Eric
Note quite. While the programmers and anyone else associated with the production are likely paid a salary while working on the project, raises, bonus payments, etc. could all be tied to sales of the product.Quote:
Originally posted by ewitte
There is a big difference. For one its likely any programmer working on the project is getting a fixed salery reguardless of how many copies are sold. Secondly piracy HELPS sales on occasion. If you put out a good product and your not screwing potential customers.
I don't know about you but I want to know if something I'm about to buy is worth it. Is test driving a car before you buy it immoral? If I don't buy it I don't use it. You can not claim sales or money lost that you never had. I just can not tell my boss "I could have worked OT, you should pay me for it."
Eric
My point was that a shady employer may try to pull something like saying they should have gotten more work out of the person for the time they were there, so they are only going to pay them for what they feel the amount work actually done was worth. Not a bit different that people pirating software for whatever lame excuse they can think up.
Read past the first three lines, and you'll find it in line 4. ;) :D :pQuote:
Originally posted by ewitte
I don't see anything here that refers to copies :)
Eric
Intellectual property, my man.
Christ was on a stick, but I find that rather offensive :DQuote:
Originally posted by mansionman
CHRIST ON A STICK! Not everything is right and wrong, you can't just lump things into catagories that make it convient for you to understand.
Theives don't have to justify their actions; rarley do they even think about their actions!
You are wrong! you always have and you always will be. Is that right?
So why are you trying to justify the actions of thieves?Quote:
Originally posted by mansionman
Theives don't have to justify their actions; rarley do they even think about their actions!
You are wrong! you always have and you always will be. Is that right?
And if I'm wrong, prove it. I've given you numerous examples how theft is wrong.
-MrD
I am not trying to justify anything! where did I say I was trying to justify other peoples actions? Not everything is justified. Just because there is justice, does not mean that this is a just world.Quote:
Originally posted by MrDigital
So why are you trying to justify the actions of thieves?
And if I'm wrong, prove it. I've given you numerous examples how theft is wrong.
-MrD
I don't have to prove you wrong. I am simply saying that right and wrong and are notional concepts invented to try and simpifly an extremley complex external reality. And that trying to simplify an exremley complex issue with a right and wrong perspective doesn't work.
Obviously you are unaware that a world outside your own exists, and that there are different degrees of right and wrong. So disregard everything I have said, as I am sure you already have, because it was a futile effort on my part.
So there are different degrees of thievery in your world, is there? And which one of us is the one living in their own world?Quote:
Originally posted by mansionman
Obviously you are unaware that a world outside your own exists, and that there are different degrees of right and wrong. So disregard everything I have said, as I am sure you already have, because it was a futile effort on my part.
Stealing is 100% wrong, so yes, anything you have to attempt to say otherwise is futile. It's unjustifiable.
-MrD
No, but there are not absolutes in my world. How can your world reflect the real world when it is so absolute and certain that anything is 100%? The world is obviously not static.Quote:
Originally posted by MrDigital
So there are different degrees of thievery in your world, is there? And which one of us is the one living in their own world?
-MrD
Of course there are absolutes. Ever hear of gravity? The vacuum of space? Stupidity amongst the masses?Quote:
Originally posted by mansionman
No, but there are not absolutes in my world. How can your world reflect the real world when it is so absolute and certain that anything is 100%? The world is obviously not static.
Stealing has always been and always will be wrong.
-MrD
Gravity (and the vacum of space) are not human conceptions. Thats physics... And gravity is not absolute even in physics.Quote:
Originally posted by MrDigital
Of course there are absolutes. Ever hear of gravity? The vacuum of space? Stupidity amongst the masses?
Stealing has always been and always will be wrong.
-MrD
Stealing is what it is! It is never a positive thing, because it has a negative consequence. positive and negitive are very different than right and wrong however. Because you see a positive consequence for one person may be negitve for another person.
If I may intervene. I see what you are both saying, but I think each of you is misinterepting the other.Quote:
Originally posted by MrDigital
Of course there are absolutes. Ever hear of gravity? The vacuum of space? Stupidity amongst the masses?
Stealing has always been and always will be wrong.
-MrD
Gravity and the vacuum of space are, to the best of our knowledge, absolutes and there is nothing within our power to change.
His point is simply this. Why is stealing wrong. It is wrong because as a being capable of living in communities, but capable of cruetly to one another, we had to make decisions on what actions would be considered right/wrong as a society. These are not absolutes like gravity, but rather decisions humans made long ago to be functional living together. Some would say humans are inherantly good, but laws must be made such that those that would think to do things that adversly affect the majority have reprocussions because it benefits society as a whole to have structure and consequences for breaking laws that provide it...now I'm starting to ramble, but you get the point (I hope).