building a server

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11-04-2000, 04:34 AM
*-SiNcErE-*

building a server

my uncle just asked me about building a server for him (his office).
should run around 10 computers where 2-3 of them make use of simple 2d graphics, and the rest of them are for office use (word processing, spreadsheet, accounting, internet, etc). Would you please give some input on what parts to get/use, processor speed of server, OS, and any other technical specs I might need to know. Nothing too fancy, just asking for something that's cost effective but will do the job at sufficient speeds. Will also take suggestions on the ideal specs of the workstations.

thanx,
Bernard
11-04-2000, 04:53 AM
Tech-Daddy

File/Print server or is he wanting to institute Domain authorization?

File and Print can be handled be either Win NT/Win2K/Novell, it simply depends upon what he is wanting to do.

Get a feel from him on what he is expecting from this "server". It may be that he is expecting several functions out of it, where as you might be under the impression that it is a file server.

Internet Connection Sharing? Email? Application server? File server? Logon Authentication to secure network access?
Lots of different functions for a "server", we need to get more specific on the request.

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HTH!
Regards,
Tech-Daddy
Who is "General Error" and why is he reading my drive?
11-04-2000, 01:53 PM
*-SiNcErE-*

well, he just said he wants something for office use, and he doesn't know too much about computers in general. and I don't know much about servers (as you can see). so something not too complicated (maybe win2k OS would be best for him). a network server that would do all the basics:
ICS
allow multiple users to use apps.
shared files
different levels of access for different users.

he's pretty much expecting something that would be decently fast, and would o the job for any type of office work. I really don't want to screw this thing up as he's trusting me. anyway, do you know of any internet resrouces that may help guide me with this server stuff?
11-04-2000, 03:03 PM
Arcadian

Quote:

Originally posted by *-SiNcErE-*:
my uncle just asked me about building a server for him (his office).
should run around 10 computers where 2-3 of them make use of simple 2d graphics, and the rest of them are for office use (word processing, spreadsheet, accounting, internet, etc). Would you please give some input on what parts to get/use, processor speed of server, OS, and any other technical specs I might need to know. Nothing too fancy, just asking for something that's cost effective but will do the job at sufficient speeds. Will also take suggestions on the ideal specs of the workstations.

thanx,
Bernard

Here is a reply that I posted in another forum here. It may sound a little excessive at first, but this kind of setup really can grow with your business. I recommended for one person, but I think you will find its specs necessary for your uncle as well. After you read the following, keep reading until the end, and I'll give you more recommendations.
------------------------------------------

It depends on how hardcore you want to go, but for a server, here is what I recommend.

Intel L440GX+ Server Board
This is a kickass server board. It supports Dual Pentium III Processors (100MHz front side bus) to 1GHz, 2GB of ECC SDRAM memory (4 DIMM sockets), 2 66MHz PCI / 4 33MHz PCI / 1 ISA slot, Integrated Intel PRO/100+ Fast Ethernet Controller (Intel 82559), Integrated Adaptec Ultra2 SCSI, and Advanced Intel server management system. http://developer.intel.com/design/servers/L440GX/

Intel Astor II Server Chassis
This is an equally kickass server chassis. Not only has it been extensively tested with the L440GX+ board, but it also supports Five Ultra2 SCSI Hot-Swap Drive Bays with Two Fans, Two Internal 1.0" Drive Bays, 300-Watt Power Supply (Sustained), Power Factor Correction (PFC), Advanced Cooling System: Four Fans, Optimized Peripheral Bay Placement and Co-coordinated Air Intake and Exhaust Channels, and Easy Access for Serviceability. http://developer.intel.com/design/se...ories/astorII/

Both of these can be purchased here, for example. http://www.techstore.com/solutions/f...nd_spec=l440gx

L440GX+ Board: $505.26
Astor II Chassis: $394.48
Total (minus S&H): $899.74
Not too bad for a start!
-------------------------------------------

Now you'll need:
OS
CPU
Memory
Disks
Network Hubs
Attachments (Keyboard, mouse, CD-ROM, etc)

I'm going with the same vedor for prices, just to keep things consistant, but if you wish, feel free to go with another vendor.

For OS, I would go with Windows 2000 Server. A 10 user license is $1,062.74. However, in order to give you some growing room, I would go with the 25 user license, which is $1,562.99. These prices seem high, but they are for the full version of Windows with full benefits.

For processor, you could start with only one in order to see if that will fullfill your needs, but since they are so cheap, you can easily go with dual processors from the beginning. A single Pentium III 800MHz is $216.78. Two of these will cost you $433.56.

For memory, I would get two sticks of 256MB. The L440GX+ board comes with 4 DIMM sockets, and some day, you may want to upgrade to 1GB of memory. However, right now, 512MB will be more than enough for you, so getting a Kingston 256MB ECC SDRAM DIMM will cost you $401.12. Two of these cost you $802.24.

For Disks, I would get two IBM 18.2GB U160SCSI 10K RPM Disks for $515.94 each. Remember, you are allowed up to 5 hot-swap disks in the Astor II Chassis, but 2 drives will start you out, and give you room for the future. The cost of two drives is $1031.88. By the way, hot-swap is a great feature that allows you to take out a hard drive from your system with the power running, and still be able to replace the drive without powering down!

For Networking, I recommend Intel's InBusiness 16 port 10/100 Ethernet Switch for $361.32. This will alow access to up to 16 clients.
http://www.intel.com/network/smallbi...s_switches.htm

The other additions to the system, you can get on your own. Here's a hint, though. A good CD-ROM is the Plextor ULTRAPLEX 40MAX Internal CD-ROM for $119.24.

Here is the cost total of your system.
Board/Chassis: $899.74
OS: $1,562.99
CPU: $433.56
Memory: $802.24
Disks: $1031.88
Networking: $361.32
CD-ROM: $119.24
Other Stuf: ???
Total: $5210.97 (without other stuff or S&H)

This is a GOOD price for a workgroup server! You aren't likely to do better elsewhere. However, if this is too much for you, let me know, and I'll help cut it down for you. I love to give advice for this kind of stuff. Good luck! https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2005/06/5.gif

[This message has been edited by Arcadian (edited November 04, 2000).]
11-04-2000, 11:56 PM
*-SiNcErE-*

here are the things I think I'll get as of now:
2x 18gig SCSI3 10000rpm
2x 256 ECC Ram
2x PIII-800mhz

Chassis:
is it really necessary to get a good case? or can I just get a normal server case like the Enermax cs930 which costs around $100usd.

Motherboard:
is there anything else you would recommend that maybe a little cheaper, not looking for something that serious. Just something that would run stable and be sharing apps/files/ICS to MAX 10 computers.

Network:
Intel's InBusiness switch looks ideal for future upgrades and such. He's planning to share an internet connection with 1 IP to 10 computers (general internet use, nothing special, just internet browsing). Will this hub be suitable for internet sharing? or must I get some gateway router like Umax3200?

OS:
so I must use the server edition? or can I get by easily with just plain win2k? what options would I lose without server edition?
11-05-2000, 12:19 AM
Arcadian

Quote:

Originally posted by *-SiNcErE-*:
here are the things I think I'll get as of now:
2x 18gig SCSI3 10000rpm
2x 256 ECC Ram
2x PIII-800mhz

Chassis:
is it really necessary to get a good case? or can I just get a normal server case like the Enermax cs930 which costs around $100usd.

For the difference in money, it makes sense to get a server case that you can upgrade. I don't know much about the case you describe, but if it's good, you can always go with that.

Quote:

Originally posted by *-SiNcErE-*:
Motherboard:
is there anything else you would recommend that maybe a little cheaper, not looking for something that serious. Just something that would run stable and be sharing apps/files/ICS to MAX 10 computers.

I would definately go with a professional board. Other boards might looks attective, but you want Reliability, Servicability, and Availability. Without these, what good is another board?

Quote:

Originally posted by *-SiNcErE-*:
Network:
Intel's InBusiness switch looks ideal for future upgrades and such. He's planning to share an internet connection with 1 IP to 10 computers (general internet use, nothing special, just internet browsing). Will this hub be suitable for internet sharing? or must I get some gateway router like Umax3200?

Sure, you can go with a hub, instead of a switch... that will also give you enough for your needs. However, you will not be able to grow quite as much as with a switch.

Quote:

Originally posted by *-SiNcErE-*:
OS:
so I must use the server edition? or can I get by easily with just plain win2k? what options would I lose without server edition?

This is totally up to you. Go to Microsoft's web site for information on the difference between Server and Workstation version of Windows 2000. However, I think the server version will allow more growth. Again, it's up to you and how much room you think your uncle's business has.
11-05-2000, 02:02 AM
*-SiNcErE-*

chassis:
the enermax cs930 is pretty much a good looking full tower with 350watt ps. anyway, would you think hotswap is necessary for a small server like this?

hdd:
I was rethinking the dual 18gig drives now. cuz since the mobo's onboard scsi is only u2w (80m/s), will probably save a few bucks with the 80m/s instead of the 160m/s. Again, this server will only be providing workstations with internet & apps (msoffice,accounting programs) & basic multilevel user access. so would it be necessary to have 2 hdd? or would it be wiser to only have 1 18gig to run the few programs that are going to be used, and expand later if necessary?

Network:
difference between switch and hub? (yes I am clueless when it comes to non-personal computers)

Mobo:
L440GX+ looks like it will do fine. But what do you think about the ASUS CUR-DLS?

Ram:
for such a simple server, do you think 256 ECC would be enough? I mean, my uncle isn't exactly running state of the art software here, just plain old office work stuff.
11-05-2000, 06:11 AM
BikeDude

Quote:

Originally posted by *-SiNcErE-*:
OS:
so I must use the server edition? or can I get by easily with just plain win2k? what options would I lose without server edition?

Definatively Server. (I even run Server at home dammit)

With Win2k Pro, you won't be able to have your own NT domain (or that active directory stuff) and you can forget about centralised user accounts, login scripts and almost anything that'll make your life easier as a network admin.

With 2-3 users, you don't need centralised user accounts, but with more than 5? I'd definatively go that route.

As for motherboard? Well, the company I work for makes (effectively three tier based software for the financial community (including would-be stock brokers who sit and home and trade over the internet). We have quite a lot of servers for a company our size (six guys), and some of the servers are just cheap Celerons humming away in an ASUS P2B (?) motherboard. Nothing wrong with using Asus.

If we ever would need dual CPU action, we'll just change the motherboard then, and get the latest technology where and when it counts. (Who knows what the CPUs' pinouts will be like half a year from now?)

BTW: You'll be disappointed by dual CPUs in a file server. CPU #2 will just sit idle and look at you funny.

Nah, I'd say save money where you can, but get a good (I prefer rack mountable when possible) cabinet, fast Ultra160/Ultra320 SCSI disks and possibly a good tape streamer (DAT is too slow, you need DLT at least). Consider creating a disk mirror for your most precious data. Win2k likes mirrors and it'll improve read performance as well. (or if you really want it bad, go with a RAID-5 controller or simply use Win2k to create a striped partition w/parity)

Also try and see if you can find Anand's article about how he has set up the webservers for anandtech.com. He covers some of the basics and deals with various configuration pitfalls (mostly related to webservers, but IIRC also mentions how a webserver differs from say a fileserver so...).

--
Rune
11-05-2000, 01:20 PM
Phoenix

Quote:

Originally posted by *-SiNcErE-*:
chassis:
Network:
difference between switch and hub? (yes I am clueless when it comes to non-personal computers)

You will definitely want a switch. With a 100MB hub, that 100MB is shared between every port, with a switch each port has 100MB if bandwidth. Also, because of the way hub's work, when data gets sent it goes out to all the ports on the hub.

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When asked how World War III would be fought, Einstein replied that he didn't know. But he knew how World War IV would be fought: With sticks and stones!
11-05-2000, 02:54 PM
Arcadian

Quote:

Originally posted by *-SiNcErE-*:
chassis:
the enermax cs930 is pretty much a good looking full tower with 350watt ps. anyway, would you think hotswap is necessary for a small server like this?

For the nominal difference in price, definately. You are going to be spending a lot of money on this server when all is said and done, so $200 more on the chassis so that you get hot-swap support will definately make it worth it for you in the future. You never know when a drive might fail for whatever reason, and this ability will likely save you a lot of grief if the situation ever occurs. In the end, it's up to you, but I would definately recommend it.

Quote:

Originally posted by *-SiNcErE-*:
hdd:
I was rethinking the dual 18gig drives now. cuz since the mobo's onboard scsi is only u2w (80m/s), will probably save a few bucks with the 80m/s instead of the 160m/s. Again, this server will only be providing workstations with internet & apps (msoffice,accounting programs) & basic multilevel user access. so would it be necessary to have 2 hdd? or would it be wiser to only have 1 18gig to run the few programs that are going to be used, and expand later if necessary?

Absolutely right. When I was looking for prices on drives, I only saw SCSI160 drives, but in your case, I should have explained U2W SCSI would suit you much better. You should always get drives that match the technology on your motherboard / expansion card. Also, tests have shown that in small servers, U2W SCSI keeps up nearly 100% with SCSI160.

Quote:

Originally posted by *-SiNcErE-*:
Network:
difference between switch and hub? (yes I am clueless when it comes to non-personal computers)

Phoenix seems to have explained this quite well. I, too, recommend you get a switch, and then run hubs off of it, such as the picture on the Intel web page (link included earlier). This allows for the best connection to the server.

Quote:

Originally posted by *-SiNcErE-*:
Mobo:
L440GX+ looks like it will do fine. But what do you think about the ASUS CUR-DLS?

I'm not familiar with the CUR-DLS, but Asus is usually good with PC motherboards. However, servers usually need a level of reliability above that of PCs. I can vouch for the Intel board, but in the end, if cost is important enough to go with the Asus board, that may work well for you, too.

Quote:

Originally posted by *-SiNcErE-*:
Ram:
for such a simple server, do you think 256 ECC would be enough? I mean, my uncle isn't exactly running state of the art software here, just plain old office work stuff.

The server should always have a large amount of memory. The biggest reason is that it can cache a lot of tasks in the background, thus allowing data to reach the clients faster. Windows 2000 Server allows for features like this. I'd say 256MB of ECC memory is the absolute minimum, and that 512MB will allow for more growth in the future.
11-05-2000, 04:58 PM
*-SiNcErE-*

current temporary specs:
1x PIII-800 (will expand if necessary)
1x Asus CURDLS (because its dual s370, slots are becoming obsolete in my eyes. I'm staying with this board unless you see a problem with this setup). its about the same price as the intel L440GX+ and supports more ram [4gb total] and has same amount of pci slots 2x66,4x33.
1x 256MB ECCram (maybe 512, not sure yet)
1x win2k server software
1x 18GB 10000rpm U2W (I need 2 for raid? cuz I'm thinking about using raid if its worth the money)

chassis:
Enermax 8091 server case...specs:
approx. $300usd
Server/IPC Case
Tooless removable front panel
Slide in/out H.D.D./F.D.D. rails included for easy installation and maintenance
3.5" x 5,1" easy detachable height H.D.D. module with 8 cm and 9 cm fan module and solid disk bracket
Snap fitting fan support for easy assembly and maintenance
Lockable security access
Ideal to install with hot-swappable H.D.D. mobile racks and disk array cages
Back plane module support up to five SCA 80 pins hard drives
Environmental Monitoring Board for Built-in fan failure/over heat alarm function
Metal folded edges
am I missing anything here? is this too much for a small server? or is it too little?

btw, thanx to all who replied and thanx for being so patient with my questions! Very appreciatitive of your help!
11-05-2000, 05:31 PM
Arcadian

Well, SiNcErE, it looks like you have a very solid system. I don't think you'll be dissapointed at all. The best thing to do is to see how that server will work in the office, and then upgrade it as necessary. You can add things like RAID, more memory, second processor, etc later. That's the beauty of getting a very upgradable server platform. Good luck with everything... hope it works out for you.
11-05-2000, 06:12 PM
*-SiNcErE-*

thanx for your help arcadian,
one last question.
would any 16port switch do? because d-link hubs are much cheaper than intel hubs. what are the advantages and disadvantages to switching to a cheaper, but still brand name, switch/hub?
11-05-2000, 06:35 PM
Arcadian

Quote:

Originally posted by *-SiNcErE-*:
thanx for your help arcadian,
one last question.
would any 16port switch do? because d-link hubs are much cheaper than intel hubs. what are the advantages and disadvantages to switching to a cheaper, but still brand name, switch/hub?

My preference is usually to stick with hardware all from the same manufacturer. In the system I originally recommended, a lot of components were Intel brand name. That way you guarentee that the parts have been validated together, and you can ensure stability. However, since you are going with a lot of differenct components, I don't see how a switch from a different manufacturer will make too much of a difference. Again, if you are on a tight budget, than you can go for the less expensive parts. Just make sure you get a switch instead of a hub.
11-05-2000, 11:53 PM
*-SiNcErE-*

ooh. forgot about another aspect.
as for servers, what software should I have on it? other than the applications workstations will be using.
I know I need Win2k Server edition, but how bout anti-virus? or any network monitoring software? or any monitoring software for that matter.
11-06-2000, 03:55 PM
Moridin

Quote:

Originally posted by *-SiNcErE-*:
ooh. forgot about another aspect.
as for servers, what software should I have on it? other than the applications workstations will be using.
I know I need Win2k Server edition, but how bout anti-virus? or any network monitoring software? or any monitoring software for that matter.

Before I answer this question, I thought I would emphasize what others have already told you. Concentrate on stability and reliability. Performance is defiantly secondary with a small number of users. If you were running NT 4 a Pentium 166 with 128 MB of EDO ram could easily meet your needs. (Not that I am recommending this, just showing you that this does not require a powerful server)

The only thing that a file and print server is likely to run that puts much strain on the system is Microsoft Exchange. Exchange is Microsoft's E-mail server, and it is a resource hog compared to other similar products like Lotus Notes and Novell GroupWise.

One very important thing you seem to be missing is a tape drive. It is absolutely essential that nightly backups be run on the system and that copies of the tapes find their way off-site in case of a disaster. Companies that have a total data loss have almost 90 % chance of going out of business within a year.

You probably want to go with a 12/24 GB SCSI DAT tape drive. Anything beyond this gets very expensive. You will need at least 11 tapes, 4 - Mon to Thurs daily, 4 Friday/weekly, and at least 3 monthly tapes. You perform a full backup every night. Reuse the Mon - Thurs tapes each week. The last day of each week you use a Friday tape and reuse them each month. At the last day of every month you perform a monthly backup and save the tape for at least 3 months.

There are variations on this but this is the one I prefer. Stay away from differential and incremental backups if possible, since they are more difficult to restore from. The only time I use them is when my backups take too long and I cannot complete them in a single night. You will not have this problem and you would still need to do a full backup on the weekend.

You can buy backup software, but the built in software in Win2K should meet your needs.

As for other software you should have anti-virus software for sure. I would also recommend Diskeeper defrag software. Win2K has licensed but the additional scheduling and features available in the Diskeeper package are nice. You should defrag nightly.

The only other software I would recommend is a mail server package. You may get a good deal on MS Exchange, but I prefer Lotus Notes, which can also double as a really nice database/app server platform. The built in software on Win2K should do everything else you need on a small network, including network monitoring, DNS, DHCP etc.

Make sure you choose IP addresses that are note routed on the Internet. This will avoid problems with acquiring IP addresses. For example 10.xxx.xxx.xxx addresses are what you want to use.

Defiantly go for a 100MB switch you will see a big performance difference especially on large files.

The other thing you may want to add is a separate server connected to the internet running NAT software and a firewall to give your network internet access via cable modem or DSL. Never run this from your file server though, that is just asking for trouble.
11-07-2000, 03:44 PM
Sketch

Quote:

Originally posted by *-SiNcErE-*:
thanx for your help arcadian,
one last question.
would any 16port switch do? because d-link hubs are much cheaper than intel hubs. what are the advantages and disadvantages to switching to a cheaper, but still brand name, switch/hub?

I am using a D-Link switch w/ Linksys NIC's on my personal network (Linux server, Win2K Workstation, and Win98) and have had no problems whatsoever, however since this is for a business, going with all one manufacturer might make more sense, just so support is easier to get. It's a matter of personal preference.

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Pleasehelpmemyspacebarisnotworking
11-07-2000, 06:45 PM
*-SiNcErE-*

thanx moridin for the detailed and very informative reply. I think I will get a tape drive too. 12GB would do well enough since he's not using too many different programs anyway. from what I know, the only programs installed on server is Win2k Server, Antivirus, MSOffice2k, maybe some other miscellaneous nothings.
But have to think about getting another machine to connect to internet since an extra system would cost quite a bit more. would a P-133 be good enough for this internet thing? If so, I'll just use that cheap old thing.

Sketch, thanx for info too. I'm thinking of going dlink switch and dlink NIC. since they're pretty cheap and should be quite dependable.