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Which game is better taking into account ALL of the following criteria?
combat
character/skill development
replayability
multiuser gaming
overall fun and addictiveness factors
Consider gameplay only. Do NOT consider the following:
a grand story - i dont care! i just want to hack, slash, advance in level and get cool gear
graphics - obviously, Diablo is an older product and has inferior graphics. But it was still an incredible game. Will Dungeon Siege keep me up at night form months on end?
unfortunatley DS is lacking something I cant put my finger on it...
D2LoD is still up there
Dungeon Siege would torch D2 if it had a comparable skill (tree) system. Point-and-click in DS takes you back to the days of Diablo 1.
Can you imagine having D2 skills in the DS environment? Man that would be tight...
Watching a 3D barbarian whirlwind through a pack of monsters while rotating cam views... or running and gunning with a multishot amazon. Makes you kinda sad to think of what DS could have been. https://www.sharkyforums.com/images/.../2002/05/5.gif
Diablo 2. It's a very good game. :cool:
IMPORTANT NOTE:
I am only looking for responses and votes from people who have experience with both games. if you've only played Diablo2 or only played Dungeon Siege, you enthusiasm for your favorite game is noted but believe me, it really screws up the results of my poll.
A. Combat
Diablo II wrecks DS in terms of gameplay. In D2, you could click on a spot and you would either get there by the shortest path or travel to the nearest valid area to where you clicked. In DS you absolutely have to click on a valid area to be able to run to it. Also, it's REALLY annoying that you have to keep clicking to run in DS- in D2 you could hold down your LMB to keep running in the direction of your cursor. And it's tough to retreat from a big pack of monsters in DS without shifting cam views (and valid-area-only clicking doesn't help)- it really gets tedious.
To attack a monster in D2, you didn't have to target them. You could target an area and shift+click to attack. In DS, you have to click on a monster. It is so incredibly aggravating trying to attack one monster out of a pack sometimes. And if you're playing a sorceror or archer and trying to target a monster that a few melee'ers are attacking... forget about it. The combat system in DS is ABSOLUTE crap. :(
B. Character/Skill Development
In D2, you didnt have to use a particular attack to level it up- you could put points into new skills based on points you gained from experience. This way VERY nice. In DS you don't even HAVE any skills, just a few spells to choose from. And you have to use them just to level up your attacking ability with it.
C. Replayability
I'd say they are both replayable, but DS is nowhere near D2 on this level. The addiction is just not there. And DS is 100% linear, no variation.
D. Multiplayer Gaming
Fun, but again the crappy gameplay of DS really hinders party play. D2 wrecks DS in this category yet again.
E. Overall Fun and Addictiveness Factors
Out of 10?
D2- 10/10
DS- 9/4
The ONLY attraction of DS are its nice graphics. Imo that was enough to buy DS for $30, and I'm happy with the decision. But I played D2 for a year and a half, and I can't foresee DS staying on my PC for more than a couple months, especially with some great new games in the near future.
Diablo II, now and forever. Well maybe till Diablo 3 comes out. :)
Yea D2 all the way. I wouldn't hold my breath for D3 though. Looks like they will be focusing on WoW more.Quote:
Originally posted by TheUltimateNewbie
Diablo II, now and forever. Well maybe till Diablo 3 comes out. :)
Yeah, but just for now. It may take a few years, but I'd say there will definitely be a Diablo 3. I just hope it will be as :cool: and addictive as is predecessors. :)Quote:
Originally posted by Maelgwyn
Yea D2 all the way. I wouldn't hold my breath for D3 though. Looks like they will be focusing on WoW more.
I like both...
But D2 is WAAAY more addicting as DS...sorry the fugged up view just annoys me after playing for too long :(
IMO the only catagory that DS beats D2, is in graphics. Blizzards prior experience in the genre really shows over DS in gameplay balance. If they could combine D2's gameplay with DS's world and graphics, it would make an incredible game.
heheh well I think that Dungeon Siege is the better game. The skill tree argument simply doesn't wash with me. While I found the skill tree idea to be quoole, if Dungeon Siege had it it would simply be another Diablo game. Dungeon Siege ISN'T diablo. And so I think being somewhat kept in the dark about your characters future development is a good thing. You find a good spell and go WOW! I gotta have that! Instead of expecting to get it all along.
The camera isn't perfect in Dungeon Siege but it could be a lot worse. The extra freedom you get in DS with the moveable camera I find to be just what I always wanted. It COULD be better yes, but it's a step in the right direction. Perhaps you need hotkeys to quickly change the camera angle when you get in a tight spot or something like that.
DS is a HELL of an advancement over Diablo. The thing is you can't expect DS to play like Diablo. otherwise it'd be the same game. So you really could't expect to play DS just like you played diablo. That'd be beside the point. I view DS to be superior in all levels to Diablo2. EXCEPT for the Diablo 2 cutscenes, which were absolutely amazing. Nothing has topped them to this very date.
DS kicks the hell outta of D2 simply because of the environment it's amazing, sure u guys might think oh i can't go here or there cuz of map, but look at the environment compared that to d2 gimme a break d2 sux0rs big time in that dept with just its repititious stages, it looks so damn bland if u ask me *grant u it does randomize areas*
d2 the skill levels grr i think that skill tree system is not bad, the ds skill leveling is much more balanced if u ask me...specially leveling up your character , i like how its ratioed out, makes the game more difficult
multiplayer, puh leeze, d2 has MASS lag issues from ppl warpin around even on lan its not funny and the invisible lightning enchanted guys that shoot off charged bolts when u hit'em haha that's funny, fortunately it doesn't happen in DS :)
well my 2 cents are basically DS blows d2 away by a long margin just by sheer graphics and environments, d2 was good for its time but it defintely has been detrhroned in the action rpg dept by DS :D
LONG LIVE DS! :D
Gee, some of you can't even reply or comment without flaming.
D2 compared to DS
D2 as a whole in singulare and multiplayer surpasses that of DS, and the only thing that appeals to me about it is the graphics. But then, I don't imagine anyone comparing Doom2 with Quake3. D2 was out nearly 2 years ago mate.
I personally found that whle being gang banged by a bunch of mobs in DS, it would be impossible to escape if you are a mage or caster, since it takes a hell of a long time to turn the camera around and then successfully escape. Also my mouse broke because of the non stop clicking while trying to run in DS, while in D2, a lot less stress was on the poor mouse. As for the skills, there was a sense of reality in DS rather than D2, but then, too much clicking in attacking, and battlenet commands are way easier to use than that of zonematch. The game would have been much better if we could run with the arrows keys on the keyboard, and have some skills for the rangers and swordwielders, rather than a complete slash/hack combo like in diablo 1.
As you see, D2 is a much more grabbing game, while DS is a bit lame.
No, having those skills in DS would not "simply be another Diablo game". The gameplay and mechanics of the two games are COMPLETELY different. Besides, that line of thinking was just a "what if".Quote:
Originally posted by IRON-PAWW
heheh well I think that Dungeon Siege is the better game. The skill tree argument simply doesn't wash with me. While I found the skill tree idea to be quoole, if Dungeon Siege had it it would simply be another Diablo game. Dungeon Siege ISN'T diablo. And so I think being somewhat kept in the dark about your characters future development is a good thing. You find a good spell and go WOW! I gotta have that! Instead of expecting to get it all along.
The game is still young- as people learn more about it, noone will be "kept in the dark" about what they will obtain later in character development.
The camera isn't perfect? Give me a break! If you run alongside any tall, opaque texture the cam view automatically zooms down onto your character! Even DARKSTONE's cam view was far better than DS's. Dungeon Siege's view is endlessly obstructed by trees, mountains, walls, you name it- the damn tracking is a joke.Quote:
The camera isn't perfect in Dungeon Siege but it could be a lot worse. The extra freedom you get in DS with the moveable camera I find to be just what I always wanted. It COULD be better yes, but it's a step in the right direction. Perhaps you need hotkeys to quickly change the camera angle when you get in a tight spot or something like that.
DS is a return to Diablo 1 in terms of gameplay and character/skill development. This is a large part of what the original poster was asking. At the RELEASE DATES of the two games, compare what he asked:Quote:
DS is a HELL of an advancement over Diablo. The thing is you can't expect DS to play like Diablo. otherwise it'd be the same game. So you really could't expect to play DS just like you played diablo. That'd be beside the point. I view DS to be superior in all levels to Diablo2. EXCEPT for the Diablo 2 cutscenes, which were absolutely amazing. Nothing has topped them to this very date.
1. Combat- DS's gameplay is horrible. Diablo 2's was user-friendly and technically superb.
2. character/skill development- They actually put some thought into this one is D2. DS has no physical skills, just magical ones.
3. replayability- D2 was incredible in terms of replayability, you could play certain areas for days and never get tired of them! DS... not even close. I'm getting bored of it already.
4. multiuser gaming- With the poor gameplay this takes a big hit. Hard (read: impossible) to find a good game on ZoneMatch.
5 overall fun and addictiveness factors- D2 was the most fun I've ever had in a game. While DS is quite fun, D2 was still way better when it was released.
This is what the poster was asking, for a comparison. Not some kind of general "this game is way better!"
DS's graphics may be better, but they are able to take advantage of many advancements in 3D rendering. Do you think D2 was structured to take advantage of GF3 or GF4 levels?
Dungeon Siege is no more than DarkStone with its textures more detailed and given a larger vertical environment.
Those "repetitious stages" gave thousands of people "repetitious enjoyment". At the time it was released, not many people found it to be bland. As for the environment, too bad DS's cam sucks so bad I can rarely get the view I want.Quote:
Originally posted by -=kenshin=-
DS kicks the hell outta of D2 simply because of the environment it's amazing, sure u guys might think oh i can't go here or there cuz of map, but look at the environment compared that to d2 gimme a break d2 sux0rs big time in that dept with just its repititious stages, it looks so damn bland if u ask me *grant u it does randomize areas*
Ratioed out? You can level any area you want as high as you want in multi, explain to me how that is balanced? And you have to hack away at one monster at a time with a physical fighter, how is that balanced vs. a mage that can select different types of targetting spells?Quote:
d2 the skill levels grr i think that skill tree system is not bad, the ds skill leveling is much more balanced if u ask me...specially leveling up your character , i like how its ratioed out, makes the game more difficult*
When I played D2 off a robust 1.5meg DSL network, I rarely had lag. Sometimes bnet would become unstable, but that was better than having to rely on someone else's connection for service. Complaining about the LEB's? Didn't you say above you liked a challenge?Quote:
multiplayer, puh leeze, d2 has MASS lag issues from ppl warpin around even on lan its not funny and the invisible lightning enchanted guys that shoot off charged bolts when u hit'em haha that's funny, fortunately it doesn't happen in DS :)
For coming out 2 years after D2, DS imho isn't very good. Morrowind and Neverwinter Nights will destroy it.Quote:
well my 2 cents are basically DS blows d2 away by a long margin just by sheer graphics and environments, d2 was good for its time but it defintely has been detrhroned in the action rpg dept by DS :D
I love both D2 and DS. If you like one, you will probably like the other, but for some reason I like D2 much better.
Ohh and i kind of like there not being a skill tree for characters who use spells because the will find them throughout the game and you dont always know what to expect. But for a knight, all they do through the whole game of DS is hack and slash, no new skills to add to the excitement :rolleyes:
I vote for D2 over DS.
Since so many ppl expected DS as D2 killer and I was really excited and waited but I have to admit it is only a daydream. ;( I played DS and it is boring. I don't find any great background story like D2. DS battle scene is also somewhat weak.. When I hack or hit monsters I don't really feel I am in control of my character. The response or graphically something is missing on DS. maybe I expected too much from DS. D2 is now repetitve so I need to move on to any other RPG game..arg I can't find any :(
I'll say DS is nice try but I dunno why they took so long(>3 years of development). It would be rock if they published 2 years ago.
Heheheh ok Rush.. you got issues with Dungeon Siege.. Fair enough.
Simply, put. I do not agree with what you're saying.
I think Dungeon Siege is a very well thought out and put together game. It reaches so much further than Diablo technically that I really appreciate what the Gas Powered games has done. Sure it needs tweaking but HOW ELSE do you follow your character through a thickly wooded forest? Do you not have the forest like Diablo didn't? Do you always want to be looking down on the action from afar from exactly the same angle? Not me, I want to get as close to the action as possible. I really don't agree that DS is a return to Diablo 1 in terms of gameplay. I don't see the similarities. In DS you get a weapon, use it, get good with it. Diablo you have to choose what you want to be good with at the start and be forever stuck with that. You can only compare DS to Diablo in a limited way because they are similar TYPES of games. But you can't expect DS to PLAY LIKE Diablo, or your other favourite RPG game. Because it is not that game, it is DS. People these days are too quick to blast games instead of talk about what games do well. LOOK at what they tried to do with the camera tracking and you'll see it was a good idea.
Not sure what you were talking about with the skills development thing. The skill tree idea belongs to Blizzard now. In my view a skill tree in DS would be too much like DiabloII. Therefore the guys at Gas have done the right thing in giving us another way to develop skills, instead of copying Blizzards method.
Anyhow just my take.... I like DS over Diablo.
Those "repetitious stages" gave thousands of people "repetitious enjoyment". At the time it was released, not many people found it to be bland. As for the environment, too bad DS's cam sucks so bad I can rarely get the view I want.
the camera takes some time to get used too, the only complaint i have about the camera angle is when your backed up against a wall and it auto moves for you. other than that there's no complaint :D
Ratioed out? You can level any area you want as high as you want in multi, explain to me how that is balanced? And you have to hack away at one monster at a time with a physical fighter, how is that balanced vs. a mage that can select different types of targetting spells?
by ratio out is that say u have 10 str and 10 dex and 30 intel vs a guy who has 15/10/30, well the game is setup so that say if guy #2 has 900 mana, well guy #1 will have more mana simply because his other stats are lower...it compares your intel/str/dex to your other stats and figures out how much hp/mana points u shud have...hence why my friends intel being 50 and all his other stats are 50 only has a mana of 1200 compared to my intel of 50 BUT my other stats are lower and i have 1600 mana *i can assure u its not from items either, items might increase it a 100 or so but he has items too*
When I played D2 off a robust 1.5meg DSL network, I rarely had lag. Sometimes bnet would become unstable, but that was better than having to rely on someone else's connection for service. Complaining about the LEB's? Didn't you say above you liked a challenge?
LoL hardly a challenge when the computer doesn't play fair like that heheh. Its just annoying, i experience lag over a 10/100 connextion lan party at times and its frustrated me to the point that ah that's just LAMEEEEEE how they kill u like that :mad:
For coming out 2 years after D2, DS imho isn't very good. Morrowind and Neverwinter Nights will destroy it.
i dunno i've heard morrowind does not support multiplayer so i dont think i'd b interested in it, who knows... anyhow that's my 2 cents and reply *NOT FLAMMING ok*
Right now D2 is winning, the repetition in DS is really getting to me, I use the same spell and combat combinations against any enemy/group of enemies with great success. If the DS editor lives up to the hype and gets community involvement I see DS taking the lead.
Damn straight I have issues with it, I already quit it's so boring. When some of my friends start modding it and scripting gameplay fixes, I'll start up again.Quote:
Originally posted by IRON-PAWW
Heheheh ok Rush.. you got issues with Dungeon Siege.. Fair enough.
That's fine, everyone can't agree on everything.Quote:
Simply, put. I do not agree with what you're saying.
What are you basing this on? I'm sorry if I find that dense, but DS is just not a good game in ANY kind of technical sense! They ruined the 3D view by a) not graying out objects obstructing your view and b) not allowing a view to be "locked".Quote:
I think Dungeon Siege is a very well thought out and put together game. It reaches so much further than Diablo technically that I really appreciate what the Gas Powered games has done.
The targeting system is extremely weak- you have to physically click on a monster to attack it. Targeting becomes a problem when an area is crowded. Diablo 2 worked around these problems very well.
Movement system- DS brings nothing, NOTHING new to AI. It will relay movement instructions based on valid areas ONLY. Diablo 2 was much better in a technical sense of movement.
You answered yourself there- give the player a choice of a "camera follow mode" where it auto-tracks your character. Even the years-old DarkStone, of which Dungeon Siege is supposed to be an advanced version, had this! Dungeon Siege is just horrible in a technical sense!Quote:
Sure it needs tweaking but HOW ELSE do you follow your character through a thickly wooded forest? Do you not have the forest like Diablo didn't? Do you always want to be looking down on the action from afar from exactly the same angle? Not me, I want to get as close to the action as possible. I really don't agree that DS is a return to Diablo 1 in terms of gameplay. I don't see the similarities.
I agree with you on wanting to see all the angles, but I'd take a follow mode or even fixed viewpoint over DS's shoddy cam work any day.
You don't get good with it, you just level your attributes associated with it more quickly. I guess that makes sense, but it isn't revolutionary by any stretch of the mind.Quote:
In DS you get a weapon, use it, get good with it. Diablo you have to choose what you want to be good with at the start and be forever stuck with that. You can only compare DS to Diablo in a limited way because they are similar TYPES of games. But you can't expect DS to PLAY LIKE Diablo, or your other favourite RPG game. Because it is not that game, it is DS.
And now I will repeat myself from my last post- I am comparing the 2 games because the original poster ASKED us to do such! Am I the only one that understands that? I don't want DS to be a Diablo clone, I'm just pointing out DS's technical shortcomings in what IT'S trying to be.
Whatever kind of idea it was, it was implented horribly. You'd think with 3 years to create the viewpoint, they would have done better. DS does graphics well, and it's blinding you to its shortcomings in every other area. That's a good thing for you I guess, since it allows you to enjoy the game to a fuller extent, but I couldn't see past them.Quote:
People these days are too quick to blast games instead of talk about what games do well. LOOK at what they tried to do with the camera tracking and you'll see it was a good idea.
No, it does not "belong" to Blizzard now. Blizzard came out with a wonderful improvement to H&S games, balancing physical fighters along with magic users. Other developers need to take note and start doing this. Maybe not to the extent that D2 does, or even the same way- but at least give us something! A sweep with a sword, allowing us to attack multiple enemies. An exploding arrow that damages enemies within its area of effect. Something is desperately needed to balance the classes out in terms of combat gameplay.Quote:
Not sure what you were talking about with the skills development thing. The skill tree idea belongs to Blizzard now. In my view a skill tree in DS would be too much like DiabloII. Therefore the guys at Gas have done the right thing in giving us another way to develop skills, instead of copying Blizzards method.
Anyhow just my take.... I like DS over Diablo.
People that wear "graphics blinders" and find it satisfactory can very much enjoy this game, I'm sure. And that's fine for them. But every time I loaded up DS I enjoyed it less and less, and found myself looking ahead to NWN. :(
Well, I played D2 for about 6 months after it came out, but I've already deleted DS after spending $50 on it. So you already know what I think. But here is what I think point by point:
combat - D2 all the way. DS doesn't make you click anywhere, but this really takes you out of the game.
character/skill development - I'd say both games are different and both are pretty good in this area. DS's new ways is pretty cool, and each time you hit an enemy you gain some skill. However, it lacks any real skills other than spells, so D2 is a bit ahead in this area. DS also has the flaw of making it near impossible to build levels after around level 60. Enemies take forever to kill and hardly give any EXP. You can get a guy up to level 85 in the original D2 before it got tough to build levels. The level building in D2 is also a bit more balanced. You always build levels at a decent rate, a bit faster if you play in the right areas. DS, on the other hand, starts off really slow. But once you make it to Crystwind, you can just go to the area between Lane and Quillrabe and get up to level 40 in no time. Then it slows down a bit until around level 60 where it becomes annoyingly slow.
replayability - D2 for sure. DS got realy boring once I had a level 60-ish guy of each skill. Every new barb I created in D2 was as fun as the last, and the other characters were fun, as well. Not to mention searching for equipment in D2 is exciting when you find a rare, but the plain and plain magical equipment you find in shops in DS are usually as good or better than most of the rare and unique stuff.
multiuser gaming - DS wins here. I quit D2 because Battle.net started to have horrible lag, even on my T3+ connection. I often get < 10 ms pings while playing other games. D2 started off at around 20-30ms for months. Then it averaged around 300 ms with spikes that went over 10000ms (10 seconds!!!). Every time I try it again I have these same issues. The lag in DS depends on the person hosting it. I usually host on my reasonably fast machine with my low latency connection, and people usually complement me on the game
speed.
overall fun and addictiveness factors - D2, based on the reasons above. Leveling is more balanced and item hunting is MUCH more exciting. DS looks pretty and has a cool feel at first, but once you realize you are just following paths from one town to the next as a an excuse to kill things, you will wish you hadn't paid so much for so little.
Finally, another response actually aimed toward the original poster. Unbiased, well thought-out, and all very valid points. Kudos Zoma.
D2-LOD owns DS absolutely no question.
Would I pay $80 again for D2&LOD? you betcha!
Would I pay $40 for DS? nope... after playing
the Demo to death, I'm waiting to get it on eGay
for $20 once all the kiddies are sick of it.
(it's already in the CostCo clearance for $40)
DS Graphics look sweet on my 10000+3dMark2001 rig,
I'm going to DL that JK2 demo on Friday.
If it's a sweet as everyone says, maybe
I'll snap up one of those as well.
BTW; if you think DS graphics are so much better
than D2, you should play D2 at 600x800 resolution.
No flying camara pans, but the Graphics still hold
up very well.