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I've seen a few retail systems advertise water cooling from links here on sharky. I don't remember the exact threads or anything. But anyway, with Prescott dissapating 90+W, and the FX heating up will water cooling ever become mainstream and if so do you think it will soon (read: next year or so)?
erm.. What do you mean by retail systems? You mean complete systems with WC or the standalone WC units? There are several companies now which have WC units on the market. If you mean complete systems with WC, then probably not for a long, long while yet as most users don't need or want the additional hassle or cost.
nope...bigger sinks and bigger fans will go a long way. An 80CFM 120mm fan on an appropriately sized Cu based AL Heatsink unit will be more then adequete for a Prescott and beyond.
I have a feeling in the next couple (heck maybe 5-8 for all I know) years you will see WC in retail system like dell etc. as the cpu's and other items create more heat in the future you will need something to carry it away. Not many people that would buy a dell want something like 4 case fans blaring at 45db next to them.
I'm just saying sooner or later it will happen unless they figure out how to reduce the heat generated as the transistors are increased or make like 180mm fans with a lower rpm...
Fans just need to advance more, we haven't seen anything really interesting in that part of cooling since, well, never I guess :p They just need to find better ways to reduce noise while still raising CFM. I thought there was something along the lines of magnetic driven fans? I haven't seen anything on it for awhile though.
I don't think you'll ever see WC become 'mainstream' simlpy because it's more a of a hassle/risk for the general consumer (and the retailer as well). Remember, common sense isn't so common ;)
The reason you haven't seen any advances in fans is there aren't any to be made. Electric motors have been around for a hundred years and have changed little in the past 30. Fans have been around about the same time and the aerodynamics is very well understood. The tradeoffs between velocity, rpm, and noise are inherrent to the way fans work and can't be circumvented.Quote:
Originally posted by JustWhitman
Fans just need to advance more, we haven't seen anything really interesting in that part of cooling since, well, never I guess :p They just need to find better ways to reduce noise while still raising CFM. I thought there was something along the lines of magnetic driven fans? I haven't seen anything on it for awhile though.
I think we have about 2 years left in fans - after that, they will need to be too big or too loud, making water cooling the preferred way to go for mainstream (Dell, Gateway, etc.) systems. Laptops are going to be troublesome - speeds are going to have to lag way behind desktop systems because of heat issues.
Hopefully technology advances will be made that allow new processors to operate using less power, thus less heat.
I very seriously doubt you'll see Dell or Gateway going the watercooling route (and if they do they will never switch their entire line of products over, maybe they'll have a model or two). It's just not sensible. We're talking about taking an enthusiasts product, putting it into the mainstream joe schmoe market, and expecting people not to ufck something up? You have too much faith in your fellow man ;) :pQuote:
Originally posted by russ_watters
The reason you haven't seen any advances in fans is there aren't any to be made. Electric motors have been around for a hundred years and have changed little in the past 30. Fans have been around about the same time and the aerodynamics is very well understood. The tradeoffs between velocity, rpm, and noise are inherrent to the way fans work and can't be circumvented.
I think we have about 2 years left in fans - after that, they will need to be too big or too loud, making water cooling the preferred way to go for mainstream (Dell, Gateway, etc.) systems. Laptops are going to be troublesome - speeds are going to have to lag way behind desktop systems because of heat issues.
Watercooling isn't exactly that easy to maintain, and especially if you just use your PC for wordprocessing/browsing/etc and have never looked at the guts. Non-tech savy people have enough trouble hooking their damn printers up, and you're expecting them to be able to keep a water cooled system running?
As far as fan tachnology goes, theres still room for advancement if you ask me, fans will surely be around alot longer than 2 more years. Heatsinks and fans will just have to improve/get larger until the general public is mostly knowledgable in the computer area, until then WC mainstream systems will never fly.
I agree with the above posters (no, it will not).
But oh, the pun! The pun! Has nobody noticed the delicious pun? ('water cooling...' 'mainstream...') :D
one Groan for posterity
I reckon you might see some computer manufacturers incorporating watercooling into some of their high-end systems.
Water cooling is certainly becoming more accessible and mainstream, with Gainward's top of the line fx card incorporating watercooling.
It will, I remeber large OEM's with them in testing. Saw them in some links a few months ago, from a trade show. I forget where I saw the link though.
Anybody here notice that new water cooling method??? The one with the small tubes just a couple of mm off of the core with a totally silent pump and a totally closed circulatory system???
I think it will become mainstream, this will be because of increased "hotspots" in microchips under .09 architechture. Although watercooling will probably not go mainstream in the next 2-3 years. Plus it is a badly worded question... "Will watercooling ever go mainstream???"... I'm probably right and all of you are wrong, muhahaha :D
Yeah I think it was at some tradeshow like comdex or something similiar. I don't know much about the differant trade shows etc...
Anyway they showed alot of systems using a silent minimalized water cooling. I think it's a good idea to work towards. I also like the magneto driven fan idea, but who knows...
I hope they really come up with something other than waiting on the next Arctic Silver version to drop us 1 or 2 degrees celcius.
I doubt you'll see it for quite a long time...the high costs ($100? for a wc system compred to $5 for those cheap retail hsfs) along with the risks of leaking and stuff...the last thing that a company wants is thousands of angry coustomers with water comming out of the side of their pc...plus they would have to retrain their techs to set up a proper wc system and learn to to disemble it when working on problems...it's just not worth it considering the current hsf's are doing fine for now and a high powered system can be cooled at little expense with air cooling...
What about the history of the cpu would give you such hope?Quote:
Originally posted by Daywalker
Hopefully technology advances will be made that allow new processors to operate using less power, thus less heat.
There is a major technical barrier to increasing cpu power coming in the next 5 years in the form of heat.No, my point was they will HAVE TO use water cooling. They won't have a choice because there won't be any other way to cool the cpu. There has been a roughly continuous increase in power consumption and accompanying required heat dissipation for the past 20 years. We're about to hit a point where air cooling simply won't be enough.. The laws of physics will break the law of Moore unless there is a revolutionary change in processor design soon.Quote:
I very seriously doubt you'll see Dell or Gateway going the watercooling route.....You have too much faith in your fellow man
When you say "mainstream," do you mean come as standard equipment in computers that are already put together like Dells and HPs?
I don't think that will happen for a while. I do agree that more and more manufacturers will begin to sell watercooled equipment such as the gainward video cards and more and more "boxed, self contained" watercooling systems will appear (corsair, koolance, etc.)
Watercooled systems are a high risk option and all manufacturers defray fault. Big companies like Dell, HP, Micron, etc., will not place themselves at such high risk in a mainstream system.
Watercooled systems, as in commercial systems are already available in some countries. PC Pro in the UK ran labs on one system over a year ago, though it did not rate particularly well in performance terms, it was indeed very quiet and in truth was essentially a corporate desktop rather than a home user product. It did indeed incur a hefty £100+ price premium, but interestingly enough employed a design that has subsequently been seen in a similar guise amongst those companies (e.g. Hush, Tranquil and Zalman) looking to use passive heatsinks where possible, by integrating parts of the case etc. into the heat dissipation mechanism. In this instance there was no radiator as one would expect, due to the desktop form factor. Instead, thesides of the case incorporated fins that constituted a radiator by letting air outside the PC absorb the heat. This of course assumes ambient temperature are lower than those inside the case and also explains the relatively poor performance.
I think firstly, passive designs will increasingly develop with fan assistance ...such as those concepts currently being driven by the likes of Zalman and Tranquil. Then, contained water-based systems may arrive if progress is not made toward reducing CPU and as pointed out, GPU temps'. These will also almost certainly result in 'closed systems' from the OEM's whereby simply opening them up will invalidate the warranty, kinda like if you play about inside your toaster or Microwave in the areas where it says do not touch, danger of death type thing. That would enable them to keep the idiots out.
This is of course assuming that the desire for sheer GHZ continues. After all, even the dumb masses will start to llearn eventually that speed isn't everything to most people. The technology being developed by Via and Intel currently to reduce the required form factor of systems at the expense of top-end power also will hold increasing consumer appeal. When you can get X-box type performance for gaming and / or respectable media handling by these hi-fi seperates sized passively-cooled Via Epia type systems, people will want them no doubt and why not? Wireless networking, wireless keyboards, mice/Remotes, wireless game pads and increasing penetration of digital tv and other media all lend itself to these types of convergence enabling systems.
Watercooling will never be a standard , is just to complicated and risky for the normal user .
I think that the next stage cooling will be some low tension Peltier who will keep the CPU to 25-30/c max cooled in top with a low cfm fan , ...the heatsinks/fan combo will die in future , that s for sure .
My Dell Axim is more powerul than the first computers and does not require a 50 degree air conditioned room to operate. I agree that the current design of CPUs are limited by heat, but a new design could change all of that.Quote:
Originally posted by russ_watters
What about the history of the cpu would give you such hope?
There is a major technical barrier to increasing cpu power coming in the next 5 years in the form of heat.
I don't see peltiers as being any more likely to be honest. In the current age I'd view these as even more niche market and increasingly rare. 5 or so years ago, peltiers were commonplace from enthusiast suppliers but nowadays they are very rare outside of the most 'hardcore' overclocking orientated stores and even then there are not that many around with sufficient power to be used in conjunction with heatsink / Fan combinations ...most people I know using them are doing so with water cooling, and I'm sure there may be one or two using them in phase cooling systems. They also still pose heavy risks if tampered with or things go awry and don't offer the type of apparent complexity as water cooling which in itself could lead to new revenue streams from OEM vendors if they can convince people that they need to engage in to after market care ...like cars need servicing, gas boilers etc.Quote:
the next stage cooling will be some low tension Peltier
It is (admittedly) unlikely, but as the need to upgrade diminishes more and more (which tbh it is for the 'average' user) these OEM companies are going to have to find new revenue streams from somewhere. The likes of Dell are dissappointingly slow (at least publicly) in promoting and innovating in convergence technologies, whilst their professed interest in consumer electronics just isn't going to be a viable prospect. The likes of Dell cannot compete with Nokia in mobile telephony, they cannot compete with Sony or their ilk in television, dvd or hi-fi.
Unless they can innovate and find the way to establish that missing link between the PC and the living room they will have problems if they can't find other revenue streams within their own market. As far as living room entertainment, these OEM's have nothing to compete with the likes of Sony, Nintendo or Microsoft, and in case of Dell, the likes of their dependency on Intel goes a long way to explain this.
Maybe with Ati in Intel's court there will be an nForce type Intel solution that can go someway toward addressing this, but until then the closest Intel type machines will be getting to convergence is through video-card required SFF's. That would be one hurdle down, then just like AMD heat and noise would be the next needing to fall.
NO NO NO NO NO
you guys are missing it all!!
you know the sharper image ionic breeze. thats what everyy computer needs!! that way there s no dust in your room and its silent
lol