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  1. #31
    Tiger Shark agello24's Avatar
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    yep. ill dual boot it with my current win xp/win7. i like the quick apps type display. i dont see many doing upgrades no time soon, due to the fact that so man have setups they have "hacked" to get to work they way they want. I just dont get it though., mofos will sell blood, semen, and organs to upgrade a iphone annually, but wont upgrade their pc OS.
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  2. #32
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    I had the chance to play with a Surface RT yesterday.

    + It can do many things that the iPad can't, which is what you need if you want to have any chance at all at competing with Apple.
    + I finally "get" Metro on a large (ie bigger than a phone) screen. It's not designed for large desktop screens, or even conventional laptops. It's for devices like this.
    + The hardware is really nice. Feels great in the hand, etc. Everything seems very high quality. I still hate the idea of kickstands, but it does the job.
    + The display is a lot better than I thought it would be. Despite having about the same PPI as an iPad 2, it's actually much nicer looking.
    + The touch cover isn't as good as a traditional laptop keyboard, but definitely way better than an onscreen keyboard. Very clever design. I didn't get to try out the type cover.

    - Performance is all over the place. Sometimes it's really smooth, other times the simplest stuff makes the system choke. Hopefully this is fixed soon - remember how terribly laggy Android was initially and how good it is now.
    - The app situation is really, really bad right now. Of course it will get better, but I am no longer buying products that aren't adequate RIGHT NOW.
    - Why the hell are Notepad and Calculator "classic" Windows apps? Were they really not able to make new Metro versions of those? Come on.
    - Office RT is pretty much unusable without a mouse. The touch targets are just way too small.

    The Surface RT seems like a somewhat flawed product right now, but there's a lot of potential here. I hope this becomes the number two tablet OS, because Android on tablets is garbage.
    Last edited by Steven P Jobs; 11-03-2012 at 07:58 AM.

  3. #33
    Hammerhead Shark Nabby's Avatar
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    Mr. Jobs the type keyboard has a mouse on it . I tried windows rt on the surface today and I really like it. It has a nice mix of classic windows and touch interface. As you said the modern windows UI makes sense here. I tried windows 8 on a standard desktop and it was annoying to use.

    Still, really digging the surface tablet though.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scolecite View Post
    I have it, how the HELL do you put shortcuts on your task tray?
    Depending on where you are:

    If already on the desktop with the application running, right click on the icon for the running application on the taskbar and select "pin to taskbar" (same as windows 7)
    If you are in the start menu area, find the application, right click and select "Pin to taskbar" (same as windows 7)
    Last edited by James; 11-04-2012 at 11:56 PM.

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  5. #35
    Great White Shark
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    I've been fiddling with multiple install attempts. legacy boot, UEFI boot, mixed mode, etc. Found some interesting stuff.

    On this Lenovo T420 test laptop I find that:
    • UEFI boot is faster than legacy boot.
    • The microsoft "USB install" option creates a USB drive that will only boot in legacy mode, despite MS touting UEFI as it's preferred boot mode. So my UEFI installs are from DVD, not USB.
    • UEFI mode creates 4 partitions when you request 1. A UEFI reserved partition, a MS recovery partition, and a "system reserved" partition, followed by the partition you requested.
    • Legacy mode sticks with the same as Windows 7 2-partition setup. (System reserved, and partition you requested.)
    • Finally: You can NOT use an upgrade license for a clean install. It works fine up through the point where you finally login into windows, then tells you the key is invalid. A little frustrated with that one.
    • An UPDATE: You can install from a clean drive, but you have to use a workaround. You just have to install twice . It detects a previous version of windows on the drive to count as an upgrade, but that previous version can be an unactivated Win8 install.
    Last edited by James; 11-05-2012 at 08:35 PM.

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  6. #36
    Defiant Shark Johnmcl7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaNihilist View Post
    I don't think people are going to be picking up a Surface RT with the expectation that they can install Battlefield 3. I'm more concerned with how you get future software than how/if you can install legacy software.

    What I'm not clear about is the actual process for getting software across the Windows 8 ecosystem.
    Is there a unified store?
    Are there three separate stores (Windows 8, Windows 8 RT, Windows Phone 8)?
    Does the Windows Store co-mingle x86 and ARM apps?
    If you have an app that runs on both, do you submit binaries for each?
    Do they show up as separate items?
    Will you be able to see x86 apps on the RT device version of the Windows Store and vice versa?
    Since Windows RT and Windows Phone 8 are both ARM, can you write an app that works on both?
    What actually "is" a Metro app?
    Where do XBOX Live Arcade games fit into this mix?

    I can see this going either really well or really bad. A unified store would be kind of awesome.
    I'm not sure so I can only post based on my observations an X86 Win8 machine. The store for Windows 8 and RT looks to be unified as it lists the instruction sets the software is compatible with so some applications list X86, X64 and ARM. I assume if I saw an app with all three instruction sets I could install it on Windows 8 and I could install it exactly the same way on an RT machine but if the application was X86 only then I wouldn't see it on an RT machine the same as Android only shows applications that are compatible with your operating system and hardware.

    I don't think Windows Phone 8 is integrated to the Windows8/RT as none of the applications are listed as being for smartphones. I don't know how it works behind the scenes either but I would assume WP8 and WinRT apps will be separate as the underlying software is different and the requirements for both are different as well particularly with the screen size.

    Metro is out due to the copyright issues, the touch interface is known as the modern UI. A 'Modern' application is quite different to a traditional desktop application in many ways, the modern UI replaces the start menu and uses a series of tiles which unlike icons can be active so can show a news headline or current weather which you can then tap to open the application. All modern applications have a consistent interface, there is no close button instead you have to drag top down, settings are part of the charm bar (the top part, the lower part is for general Windows settings) and the applications themselves are touch friendly so the usual stuff like kinetic scrolling etc.

    Where it starts to get confusing is that you have both a touch version of an application and a desktop application but they're entirely separate to either other rather than having both being an interface to the same underlying application which would have made sense. So say for example you fire up Internet Explorer in the touch mode (which works much better with touchscreens than the normal one as buttons are easier to press and it has kinetic scrolling) but then decide due to compatibility reasons you want to switch to the desktop version of Internet Explorer - when you open the desktop version, it will be starting from scratch as it doesn't automatically carry over your session. Another example is music, I fired up the touch version but was surprised to see it didn't pick up either of my media servers so I had to go into the desktop mode, manually add them into the library then back into touch and now I could see them in the touch music application. However I didn't like it much due to the way it didn't seem to letyou see what else is playing very easily so I fired up the desktop media player instead and played around in the touch mode. When a track came on I didn't recognise I had a quick look at the touch music tile to see what it was but because they are separate applications it was blank, I had to go back to the desktop mode to see.

    This jarring disconnect between the touch and desktop modes is one of the worst parts of Windows 8, the touch version also works poorly with mice and even worse with trackpads as gestures are too large and need too much scrolling. I'm using Windows 8 on a hybrid tablet/ultrabook and some of the touch stuff does work quite well but many of the applications just don't use the screen space and instead feel like they were designed for a small mobile phone screen which should hopefully change in time. For my desktop I will probably set it to use the desktop mode only and turn off some of the touch stuff as I won't be using it.

    I don't know where Xbox 360 arcade games fit in yet, I signed into Windows 8 using my Live account which is tied into my Xbox so it has synced up the accounts. This means when I play the games on Windows 8 I can see my Xbox avatar and I can unlock achievements which add to my 360 gamerscore. I haven't seen any 360 Live arcade games available for sale in the store, instead they all seem to be based on WP7 games or new ones. There is a rather slick application called Smartglass which is also available on Android that allows you to connect your PC to the Xbox - so far it doesn't do much but there is potential there. On Forza Horizon you are supposed to be able to view and scroll the world map on the PC while driving in the game which could be handy although I think this is broken at the moment. Last night when I fired up Halo 4 a little popup appeared on the Windows 8 machine offering to connect to Halo4 which I did and it brought up a rather cool and detailed UNSC looking interface which allowed me to browse in detail all the stats for the game, the daily challenges etc. although no live information that I could see that would help me while playing the game.

    John
    Last edited by Johnmcl7; 11-07-2012 at 06:41 PM.

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  7. #37
    LOLWUT ImaNihilist's Avatar
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    Seems confusing. I didn't realize there were two version of apps. That sounds like developer hell. You've got to build two versions of an app Windows 8, then think about how/if it runs on RT.

    I'm pretty excited to see where this goes though. I really want a Surface, but I'm holding out for the Intel version because the reviews have been so bad, and people are complaining about speed. My hope is that the experiences will be much better with an i5 and HD4000.

    I like the direction though. I like outlook.com, skydrive and the new Skype website. I also like the way they linked Skype and Microsoft Accounts. The Microsoft Account is MUCH better than iCloud or Google Accounts because it's portable. You can just switch your main email address. I LOVE that.

    There are rumors of a 7" Xbox Surface tablet now too. I'm guessing that would also be ARM.

    The next year or so is probably going to be really painful for Microsoft, but for the first time in a while I'm considering them again, and I'm pretty damn deep in the Apple ecosystem.
    Last edited by ImaNihilist; 11-07-2012 at 06:57 PM.

  8. #38
    Defiant Shark Johnmcl7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaNihilist View Post
    Seems confusing. I didn't realize there were two version of apps. That sounds like developer hell. You've got to build two versions of an app Windows 8, then think about how/if it runs on RT.
    I don't think that is the case, I think from a developer point of view you only make one application which is then compiled for ARM and X86. The desktop is almost a legacy application in itself so going forward I assume the intention is that people develop Modern UI applications only. So from a developer point of view it's probably a lot more straightforward particularly as the phone interface is also the same.

    I'm pretty excited to see where this goes though. I really want a Surface, but I'm holding out for the Intel version because the reviews have been so bad, and people are complaining about speed. My hope is that the experiences will be much better with an i5 and HD4000.
    That is the spec I'm running it on with a 128GB SSD on a Vaio Duo 11, it is blisteringly fast - it's quite strange that for years new Windows operating systems have meant slow performance and much higher resources required initially but now we're going the other way, Win7 was better on resources than Vista and 8 is better again. This machine boots to the logon screen in about two seconds from cold (thanks to the hybrid startup/shutdown), it shows the Vaio logo briefly then the logon screen. In use the machine is very quick and smooth which makes the touch interface very enjoyable to use if not always that useful. I am now considering upgrading my X79 desktop to Win8 for the fast performance as it's one of the best part of Win8 so far. I was interested in a Surface Pro but obviously can't get one so went for the Duo 11 instead, stunning screen and unlike most machines of this type it keeps full size ports so it has VGA, LAN and HDMI without needing adapters which is very useful for me.

    John

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  9. #39
    Great White Shark
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    A small issue (frustrating, but actually small):

    1. I've always gloated that from the start Windows Phone 7 allowed me to see all of my google calendars, not just my main one. Windows 8 Pro on the other hand apparently is setup like it's using technology from 4 years ago. It will only sync my primary calendar. What's worse, is that in doing so, somehow it has broken my Windows Phone 7 device, and now my device will not show any of my secondary calendars either. Whatever this flaw or quirk (Some MS employees have responded to queries about the issue saying "Google asked us not to sync secondary calendars"), it needs to be fixed soon. It's very frustrating, and limits the usability of not just one of my devices, but currently all of my devices.

    This is extremely frustrating. Not a deal breaker, but it has caused me grief. Not to mention, this was working fine with WP7, how did they manage to botch it with Windows 8?

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  10. #40
    Hammerhead Shark Nabby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    A small issue (frustrating, but actually small):

    1. I've always gloated that from the start Windows Phone 7 allowed me to see all of my google calendars, not just my main one. Windows 8 Pro on the other hand apparently is setup like it's using technology from 4 years ago. It will only sync my primary calendar. What's worse, is that in doing so, somehow it has broken my Windows Phone 7 device, and now my device will not show any of my secondary calendars either. Whatever this flaw or quirk (Some MS employees have responded to queries about the issue saying "Google asked us not to sync secondary calendars"), it needs to be fixed soon. It's very frustrating, and limits the usability of not just one of my devices, but currently all of my devices.

    This is extremely frustrating. Not a deal breaker, but it has caused me grief. Not to mention, this was working fine with WP7, how did they manage to botch it with Windows 8?
    That doesn't make sense. This works on my iPhone and google and apple hate each others faces. It is a bit of a tweak but completely works. I sync 4 of my google calendars as well as my girlfriends calendar.
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  11. #41
    Great White Shark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nabby View Post
    That doesn't make sense. This works on my iPhone and google and apple hate each others faces. It is a bit of a tweak but completely works. I sync 4 of my google calendars as well as my girlfriends calendar.
    Doesn't make sense to me either. Windows Phone has had this working since day 1, and the old terrible calendar app in previous versions of Windows works fine. Somehow this has been broken. I hope it's in the next patch Tuesday for a fix.

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  12. #42
    Hammerhead Shark Geforce255's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kujoe2002 View Post
    I don't like the new interface. It reeks of imitation and they will pretend its their own unique design and coding.
    What are they imitating?

    Apple hasn't "invented" a Metro style interface, yet - but they will - THEN you can claim Microsoft copied them....
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  13. #43
    LOLWUT ImaNihilist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geforce255 View Post
    What are they imitating?

    Apple hasn't "invented" a Metro style interface, yet - but they will - THEN you can claim Microsoft copied them....
    Apple has too much love for gradients to ever go to a Windows/Metro style UI.

    I rather like the new Windows UI though. I feel like the text rendering is off though. Outlook.com looks better on a Mac than on Windows IMO.

  14. #44
    Hammerhead Shark Geforce255's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaNihilist View Post
    Apple has too much love for gradients to ever go to a Windows/Metro style UI.

    I rather like the new Windows UI though. I feel like the text rendering is off though. Outlook.com looks better on a Mac than on Windows IMO.
    Meh;

    Apple will come out with a large tile interface in about a year and all the Apple sycophants will rave about how innovative and perfect it is. They'll copy Metro, like the copied iPaq and the Microsoft tablet



    And everyone claims that the iPhone and iPad were the start.

    Marketing hype trumps innovation every time. Microsoft innovates, Apple imitates, and the public swoons.
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  15. #45
    LOLWUT ImaNihilist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geforce255 View Post
    And everyone claims that the iPhone and iPad were the start.

    Marketing hype trumps innovation every time. Microsoft innovates, Apple imitates, and the public swoons.
    Because they were the start. Everything that came before was pretty terrible from a design perspective. Not how it looks, but how it functions. They weren't the first to do it. They were the first to do it right. And even when they did it, a lot of people (including Microsoft) thought they would fail because Microsoft failed so many times before.

    The world of computing is fundamentally different post-iPhone/iPad. Touch, multi-touch, no pen, thin, light, proprietary. None of that had ever been done before, and that's the new model.

    In about 5-6 years the tablet will completely overtake the desktop. You've got a whole generation of people learning to use a tablet BEFORE a desktop.

    They might merge, they might not. Hard to say, but to call the iPhone/iPad "marketing hype" is a completely misunderstanding of consumer technology.

    The most innovative thing Microsoft has done in a while is getting ready for the inevitable switch form desktop to tablet with Windows 8.

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