9700 is NOT just fast because of DX9...and there is no guaranty that NV30 will...

[steppy76]

be faster.

1. The 9700 has 8 pixel pipelines . This is not a DX9 spec like some people seem to think(Scolecite)
2. The 9700 has a 256-bit memory interface. This also is NOT a DX9 spec
3. Ati has taken notes from Nvidia to take away the few hardware advantages NV had over them...the crossbar memory interface, multi sampling AA(which ATI seems to have improved on according to the previews
4. ATI still has the lead in other features that they implemented a generation earlier than Nvidia(Hyperz...ETC.)

Now for reasons why NV30 has probably as much chance of being slower than it does of being faster

1. Nvidia next gen is typically 20-30% faster than it's previous generation...ATI is that much faster in worst case scenarios.

2. Few leaked specs pointed to an 8 pixel pipeline for the NV30 until recent months(most I believe pointed to 6 at most) when the 8 pipe R300 seems to be almost guaranteed. Early last summer an unofficial roadmap was leaked that showed not only the target specs for the r200, but also for the R300...the specs for the R300 were almost dead on(so were the 8500 specs). ATI may have raised the bar MUCH higher than what Nvidia was expecting(this is by FAR a bigger leap than we've seen since probably V1-V2 sli).

3. The cycle of a rotating king of the hill in the computer industry(in everywhere except CPU's and OS's)pointed to this LONG ago.

4. ATI generally has less brute force hardware power than NV but better techniques(ie their aniso)

5. Nvidia has previously been playing from a tie or on top...not from WAY behind. I'm willing to bet that judging from their attitude they were figuring on R300 slightly bettering GF4, not annilating it. The Radeon slightly topped the GF2, a driver and clock update took care of that. The 8500 slightly beat the GF3, a driver update and clock bump took care of that. This won't work this time.

6. Just because it's Nvidia doesn't mean they are infallible, and DOES NOT guaranty that they have something faster up their sleeves. ATI may have just raised the bar higher than what Nvidia was aiming for(judging from most people's shock at how much faster the 9700 is, I doubt we're alone in underestimating ATI).

7. I don't believe that many rumors indicate a 256-bit memory interface for NV30...this could be disatrous(I think they may be trying a 128-bit DDR-II interface...which could get killed if the 9700 refreshes with the 256-bit memory interface using DDR-II)


So, people may want to think before they say "NV30 WILL be faster"...it's more of a NV30 MAY be faster. I personally think ATI may be on top for a year or two only to be toppled at some point by someone else, and then expect the cycle to repeat.

[Scolecite]

DX9 requirements mean nothing to me.

Remember system requirements for games on the box(pick one of over 100 games that give underated system specs)?

What means somthing to me is a company that builds a card, not to the minimum but to what the task is really going to require. ATI realised that to run a DX 9 game properly (DOOM 3)they needed 8 pipe lines and 256 bit memory interface. Thats awesome. GO ATI. It NEEDS to be this fast. As will the rest of the cards comming out down the pike in order to run these games properly.

I think its thier sole motivation rather than building a card to dominate the market and crush Nvidia.

[akhad612]

Originally posted by Scolecite
DX9 requirements mean nothing to me.

Remember system requirements for games on the box(pick one of over 100 games that give underated system specs)?

What means somthing to me is a company that builds a card, not to the minimum but to what the task is really going to require. ATI realised that to run a DX 9 game properly (DOOM 3)they needed 8 pipe lines and 256 bit memory interface. Thats awesome. GO ATI. It NEEDS to be this fast. As will the rest of the cards comming out down the pike in order to run these games properly.

I think its thier sole motivation rather than building a card to dominate the market and crush Nvidia.

Also remember that NVIDIA pumped a lot of resources into the X-BOX. This took time and money away from R&D for Puter video cards. What did ATI do for the GAME CUBE???? They just bought the company that made the CARD and took in the big $$$.

[Nabby]

Originally posted by akhad612


Also remember that NVIDIA pumped a lot of resources into the X-BOX. This took time and money away from R&D for Puter video cards. What did ATI do for the GAME CUBE???? They just bought the company that made the CARD and took in the big $$$.

That's pretty damn slick if you ask me. Pay lots of money for a product that may not be worth much at the moment, but get even more money later on. That's just smart. It's what most big companies do. *cough*cough*Micrsoft*cough*. They buy out companies in that matter all the time. Why? because they have the cash to do so. It's a smart practice, maybe not moraly correct (for some people)but effective.

[Kaaos]

Originally posted by steppy76
1. Nvidia next gen is typically 20-30% faster than it's previous generation...ATI is that much faster in worst case scenarios.

True, but NV30 isn't based on GeForce architechture, but on totally new architechture, so no-one really can tell how much faster or slower it'll be than R9700 for example, last time nVidia changed really their architechture was long ago, when they released their first TNT chip (GeForce chips are based on same architechture, afaik, only difference between tnt2 and gf256, is t&l unit & 2 texture units (or pipelines or whatever, don't really remeber) more than TNT2.).

[steppy76]

Originally posted by Kaaos


True, but NV30 isn't based on GeForce architechture, but on totally new architechture, so no-one really can tell how much faster or slower it'll be than R9700 for example, last time nVidia changed really their architechture was long ago, when they released their first TNT chip (GeForce chips are based on same architechture, afaik, only difference between tnt2 and gf256, is t&l unit & 2 texture units (or pipelines or whatever, don't really remeber) more than TNT2.).

I know, but I have a feeling that they were planning on upping the speed by about the same margin as I doubt they figured ATI would up the bar as far as they did. I'm betting NV30 will be about the same speed(+-5%) as R300 or slower. I want people to look at this and come back when its released...if I'm wrong so be it, but I'm not just saying this based on the previews of the 9700; I've got posts at Rage3D from over a year ago that I had stated the exact scenario that's playing out.

[Sgt_Strider]

Originally posted by Scolecite
DX9 requirements mean nothing to me.

Remember system requirements for games on the box(pick one of over 100 games that give underated system specs)?

What means somthing to me is a company that builds a card, not to the minimum but to what the task is really going to require. ATI realised that to run a DX 9 game properly (DOOM 3)they needed 8 pipe lines and 256 bit memory interface. Thats awesome. GO ATI. It NEEDS to be this fast. As will the rest of the cards comming out down the pike in order to run these games properly.

I think its thier sole motivation rather than building a card to dominate the market and crush Nvidia.

Actually Doom 3 doesn't use direct x 9 as an api but rather the next generation open gl 2.0 or so I hear...

[TimisoaraKill]

Originally posted by steppy76


I know, but I have a feeling that they were planning on upping the speed by about the same margin as I doubt they figured ATI would up the bar as far as they did. I'm betting NV30 will be about the same speed(+-5%) as R300 or slower. I want people to look at this and come back when its released...if I'm wrong so be it, but I'm not just saying this based on the previews of the 9700; I've got posts at Rage3D from over a year ago that I had stated the exact scenario that's playing out.

Agreed with you , they had no ideea that card will be so good , as for speed i think also that it will be only +,- 5 % and not more , i also doubt that NV 30 in .13 will be out in November , i think that january will be the release date . To build a New chip and technology directly in .13 is not an easy thing to do .

[fbs1992]

Originally posted by TimisoaraKill


Agreed with you , they had no ideea that card will be so good , as for speed i think also that it will be only +,- 5 % and not more , i also doubt that NV 30 in .13 will be out in November , i think that january will be the release date . To build a New chip and technology directly in .13 is not an easy thing to do .

I think they probably planned to release it in november, but when they found out what ati had in store they will probably take more time, which will help ati gain market share, but by no means will nvidia come near going out of business.

[[DWC]DarkWolf]

Who siad anything about nVidia going out of buisness? Anyway, the first release of the 9700 won't even be .13 micron or have DDR-II memory. I think ATI want's to be able to make a refresh whenever they want just to spite nVidia the same way nVidia always does with their Ultra's and Ti's and stuff. If it were me, I would have named the R300 the Radeon 10000, unlessof course, I were either making a new name for the chip (which they aren't) or planning a refresh. ATI doesn't market anything like a new product unless it is.. Where nVidia really milks the market with two or three identical products at different speed leveles and pulls off the PR to make it look good... Also, on a similar note reguarding the upcomming "fight of the century," I think the playing field for drivers will be leveled. Becuase nVidia keeps making refreshes and building right on top of old technoligy with their new cores, they don't have to start over at square one each time. With both companies putting out totaly new cores at the same time, it should be an interesting fight. I'm looking forward to what's comming and really wishing I had a job. I *could* buy a 9700 with what I have... But hen I'd be running it on a PIII 800.

[Panda]

Originally posted by Sgt_Strider


Actually Doom 3 doesn't use direct x 9 as an api but rather the next generation open gl 2.0 or so I hear...

Even so...

ATI has strong plans to support Microsoft's high-level shading language and OpenGL 2.0

That's from gamespot's 9700 preview. Also they don't have plans to support nvidia's Cg language because it was developed without their input and is not an open standard, according to the preview at least.

http://gamespot.com/gshw/stories/fla...4779-4,00.html

[Dude]

Originally posted by Sgt_Strider


Actually Doom 3 doesn't use direct x 9 as an api but rather the next generation open gl 2.0 or so I hear...

It should be using both current gen gl and gl 2.0.

[CesarNYC]

Of course you are right that there is no gurantee, but if the NV30 wasn't the fastest when it debuts, it would fly in the face of good business sense, and contradict all of vid card history. There is no gurantee that pigs will not evolve into flying creatures, but I don't think Vegas is posting the odds either. I plan to get a 9700 imeadiatly when available, but I don't think it will have some special extended shelf life that will ward off NVIDIA's NV30. What the 9700 will be is the fastest when it hits the streets, and it is faster then anything available right now. Anyone who expects more should pick a diffrent hobby, like antique collecting so there investments will never lose value.