AGAIN :) Cheap Duali is here and in I875

[Dan@354-Pines]

As an aside,

I've never really understood, apart from being bl00dy obtuse and anoyed that they made a mistake back in the early Pentium days, as to why Intel so adamantly refuses to allow the desktop CPU's to run in MP configs. Really, it makes no sense. It means having to create a low-end Xeon in this case, which further blurs the distinction between server and desktop chips whilst simultaneously eliminating a whole section of that low-end/entry-level market.

In terms of companies like mine ...the ones who really buy Xeon-based servers en mass, they loose nothing. We wouldn't touch a low-end non-certified processor in a server, which is why we never touch AMD. Even in tests, AMD won like for like hands down on price and performance against (the early) dual-Xeon servers, and we went and got dual Xeons purely because of the Intel badge and the fact that they validate their stuff like crazy (according to one of our whitepapers, one Intel test showed the fans in the server case to be so powerful, that in advent of a cpu fire, the fans almost instantly put the fire out).

Small companies in my experience either go with no servers at all, or go to another option (i.e. use a sp desktop solution for a server, or a competitor like AMD) rather than spend big bucks on server chips and chipsets. Were the cross-over to be transparent between desktop and dual processing they'd open up a much bigger transitional market IMO. That only leaves content creators, who will pay premium's for server-calibre products if warranted (i.e. if price equals performance) and data centres who will also shirk the server cpu's where they can, instead opting for options like huge arrays of clustered small servers with lots of redundancy built-in that way.

We've used that approach with 2U dual Xeon-based rack servers, and also with larger servers (e.g. 8-way 2MB cache with Cache Coherency filters Xeons) and to be honest, the business is swaying toward the former from the latter based on cost and performance and pretty much any other argument you can find. With O/S's and applications increasingly supporting clustering better and better, this is now a real possibility. The funny thing is, in one project we spent more on this approach than a previous comparable project, because the Dual PIII based 2U option at the time, came with the Tualatin (512Kb cache) cpu's which allowed us to develop a much better solution around multiple servers, than the equivilent solution using a single four-way server set-up.

The signs are there that Intel's maybe feeling a bit more threatened in it's core server market than it ever has before, what with the 1Mb L3 Xeons and the constant Dothan rumours, but honestly, I don't see Intel really having to worry due to the reasons outlined above.

These new Opteron's do look expensive (compared to previous AMD offerings), but lets hope this is indicative of quality and performance ...and of getting proper validation to make them at least worth considering in the corporate market.

[Colossus]

The markup for a P4 compared to a Xeon is around $50 - $100+ dollars depending on speed...

Granted the price did come down but for most people and most applications on the market.. The extra CPU would be wasted...

So unless you have a specific application in mind that you will indeed use, that supports dualie.. then go for it... Otherwise it is not worth the premium... Since it is still more expensive (Second chip, price premium over standard P4 and the added price of the board)

[Dan@354-Pines]

Hey, one place where our Rip-off Britannia culture 'works out better' than the US ...well, I wouldn't go that far LOL! ..but here the premium for Xeon's is much, much smaller, equiv' of $50 max across the Xeon P4 equivilent range.

Still, I largely agree with the perspective that it's not worth the extra outlay, but was just trying to make the point that it shouldn't be so easily dismissed out of hand, particularly for those with a diverse range of computing interests outside of the more commonly represented hardcore benchmarking and gaming fraternity. I still think with Digital Video becoming more and more mainstream, that's one area where the amateur (rather than novice) to semi-pro enthusiasts would reall appreciate dual processing. Outside of the likes of 3D modelling there's few other applications that demanding out there to even truly warrant bigger, faster single processor units but for the desire many share to have the biggest PC ...oh I nearly wrote something else there!

[Colossus]

Originally posted by Dan@354-Pines
Hey, one place where our Rip-off Britannia culture 'works out better' than the US ...well, I wouldn't go that far LOL! ..but here the premium for Xeon's is much, much smaller, equiv' of $50 max across the Xeon P4 equivilent range.

Still, I largely agree with the perspective that it's not worth the extra outlay, but was just trying to make the point that it shouldn't be so easily dismissed out of hand, particularly for those with a diverse range of computing interests outside of the more commonly represented hardcore benchmarking and gaming fraternity. I still think with Digital Video becoming more and more mainstream, that's one area where the amateur (rather than novice) to semi-pro enthusiasts would reall appreciate dual processing. Outside of the likes of 3D modelling there's few other applications that demanding out there to even truly warrant bigger, faster single processor units but for the desire many share to have the biggest PC ...oh I nearly wrote something else there!

It is still more then that

P4 3.06Ghz $390
Xeon 3.06 $520

So that is more then a $50 premium

But like you said... Having a dual setup is a very specialized application in mind...

[pudad]

I'd rather pay an extra 100 or two and get pci-x with the package.

[raider1v1]

i remember when i was going to get a dual setup a couple years ago, then i found out like you are now that everyday apps dont use it. period. its like its not there.

get a fast single.

and if you want to save money get a 2500+ and oc it.

if not get a 3200 or a 3.06ht

DUAL IS NOT WORTH IT

and at this point opterons are not worth it. whats the point of having your 64bit cpu running in 32bit mode? nothing

[Dan@354-Pines]

whats the point of having your 64bit cpu running in 32bit mode?

...Oh you Windows Fan-Boy ...LOL!

But the Linux guys will be happy to have 'cheap' 64-bit supoprt for an O/S that actually suports it.

BTW, M/S had planned on 64-bit well-before AMD announced their CPU's, they started working on 64-bit in conjunction with Intel when they first conceived Itanium. I know, becuase the likes of D*ll lost big £££'s as a result of M/S. They finally got their Itanium-based servers ironed-out ...but then could only offer them with Red Hat. Talk about a hard sell ...one v.good Dell Tech-guy trying to sell 8-Way Itanium boxes to 12 hard to please Corporate Bods that work for a Windows comoany. This was getting on for three years ago now, and M/S had announced 64-Bit Win2k that August, followed by support for (proper) clustering in a 'Gold' version to be finished/ready the following June. Everyone's still waiting.

One day everyone will be referring to 64-bit OS' like the current incumbents the question is still how soon?

[Polaris]

Originally posted by Exode
sorry but I have to do this:

[rant]
god, you guys are so friggin ignorant....
as the example in quote above shows... you guys are all gamers, and dont have a friggin clue what performance a dual machine has and what it is good for, so dont post here if you dont have a clue!
Or atleast READ the posts carefully, do your reasearch and then post!

And this forum isnt a GAMERS General Hardware forum, or is it?

Jeeeeeeeeezzzzz!
[/rant]

SNA, I appreciate the research youve done so far, a dual setup at that cost is awesome. AND FOR THOSE WHO NEED A DUAL SETUP this is valuable information!

While I occasionally take in a casual game of Outcast, I am decidedly NOT a gamer, I am a musician who knows that you really will only get your money's worth for a duallie when the app you are using is coded to take advantage of it.

Other than that, the minor benefit from marginal multitasking performance is not worth several hundred dollars.

[alwayshungry4more]

i'm toying with the idea of dualies versus a P4 HT. Can anyone with experience in either of these setups offer a suggestion for what I'm looking for?? (some examples below)

1. burn cd while doing other things: browsing, gaming, etc.

- I tried burning a cd and occasionally IE (trying to scroll down a web page) would hang. i think it was happening when a cd track was being finished/started. annoying. maybe the software sucks? Easy CD Creator 5.

2. run antivirus scan while doing normal tasks: open/close word+excel docs, browsing, email, play a game, etc.

- but I would think that the hard disk thrashing from the AV would still cause problems with other apps not in memory.

____________________________________________________________ ________

i can go on with more examples but the gist is: kick off one process and go do something else. the goal is to have the secondary task(s) run with very little lag/hanging/stalling.

I'm currently not sure if a P4 HT would be sufficient enough to handle these workloads OR if a dualie would even help...

[raider1v1]

I havent had any of those problems. check out the rig in my sig.

and im running a single.